People First! with Morag Barrett

Welcome to this week's episode of People First. And this week, I am talking with Janine Matho, who is a former executive at Harvard and Pearson and an award-winning leader in the global learning sector. And she's now a trusted advisor to changemakers who are navigating growth and transition. Throughout her twenty five year career, Janine has led high impact initiatives across public, private and nonprofit sectors, raising more than thirty million dollars for education and innovation, shaping global strategy on the future of work and learning and guiding organizations through profound transformations. We are here today, however, to talk about Janine's new book, Live Your Opus, which she has written specifically for high-achieving professionals, i.e. all of you watching this or listening to this episode, who look successful on the outside but may feel a little misaligned or depleted within. So we will learn more about what that means. Janine now lives in Provence with her husband and their Labrador, Solil, and she travels frequently to London and Boston where she and her husband raise their three now grown children. Janine, welcome to People First. So nice to be online. Thank you for having me. Well, I think I'm a little jealous of you because I'll admit I grew up when a book called A Year in Provence hit the shelves. And there was a TV show. I think there was even a movie as well. So I'm going to cut to the chase of all the places in the world, of all the places within France. It may be a daft question, but why Provence? You know, it's funny because I grew up with that book, too. And I always wanted to, I mean, I was just always attracted to everything Provence, but I didn't come here until twenty thirteen for the first time. So I was already grown. It was my husband and I was our family did a family honeymoon when we got married, bringing our two families together. And then it just became a place that we kept coming back to. And then we'll talk more about why I ended up here. But it's, I mean, what's not to like about Provence? It's beautiful. The lifestyle is wonderful. It's proximity to everything else in Europe. Yes, indeed. All right. Well, it seems like... I mean, we've known each other for years, but in fact, our friendship, our professional relationship is relatively new. And so I've been learning a little bit about you and your long career like mine and the twists and turns. So let's start with the basics. What was the inspiration behind Live Your Opus? I'm so glad you asked me that. And about the title, too. And I'll come to that. So, I mean, Live Your Opus is actually just rooted in my experience. And five years ago, I hit profound corporate burnout. My mom was killed in a car crash. I was already sort of slowly burning out with reorg upon reorg. Those things came together at the same time. And other things came up as a result. So childhood trauma. And lots and lots and lots of questions. And about six weeks after she passed away, honestly, my life as it was changed forever. Because I just couldn't get out of bed. I mean, it was just, it's not anything I ever could say I expected. Because I... maybe like many people who are listening, you know, I was super high achieving, loved my work, loved the impact I had, had a great team, you know, all of those things. I was kind of like a company gal, so I was always putting in the effort. And it never occurred to me that there would be a point where I would hit some kind of limit that my body or my spirit, my heart, whatever you want to say, just would sort of go, actually, no, we're not doing this anymore. And that was frightening, actually, really frightening. kind of feeling like you don't know who you are and maybe other people don't know either because it's not what anyone, including myself, ever expected. So for me, the roots of Live Your Opus started there, but it's more because going through that experience led me to take some of my backgrounds in learning and leadership and transformation and led me to sort of say, how did this happen? You know, how did I get here for real? And how can I help others never be here, never be in this place? Because you shouldn't have to be in this place. And, you know, I think I came... I went through so many questions, I mean, existentially and whatnot. But out of it came for me a core question, which is how can... ambitious people, so high achieving ambitious people, how can we live meaningful, fulfilling lives with lasting success without trading well-being and health, right? Without giving up what matters most to us or losing ourselves in the process. And that question has kind of set me off on a quest, interviewing hundreds of people about their experience, interviewing experts, reading everything I could from neuroscience and positive psychology and ancient wisdom. Frankly, I was like all over everything, Ayurveda. I was willing to look for answers everywhere. And I've always had quite an interdisciplinary point of view, so I thought, why not? And I think for me, then, Live Your Opus is my attempt to answer the question, how do we live meaningful, fulfilling lives without giving up everything, who we are, what we believe in, et cetera. And I think it's an invitation, I hope, for people like you and me and others to maybe trade, consider what is the old model of success working in this new world that we live in? What's a new model of success? you know for me a new model of success is when your energy and your health rises with your ambition doesn't drop right and so there's just there's just um it's an invitation um yeah I like that. So let's break down the mindset that I think that might be tripping us up. So when you talk about high achievement and when you talk about successful leaders, what are some of the myths that in all of those interviews that you recognize that we have been told about what that looks and feels like? I think on the surface level, it's, you know, work hard, and you'll reap rewards, right? And, you know, keep working harder and harder and harder. And yeah, we talked about working smarter, but that's so that we can work harder, usually. And so I think we're missing a trick on how do you actually care for yourself? You know, how do you actually refuel your energy? How do you actually stay in alignment and figure out what that is in the first place? Yes. I mean, the foundation, though, is we think if we just keep pushing and just a little bit more, just a little bit more. that it will be, it'll reap the rewards. And I think it does reap rewards because actually the workplace rewards you, right? Rewards you financially, it rewards you with titles, rewards you with more teams and more opportunities to shine. But high achieving isn't high performing necessarily. And to me, that's- say more about that yeah so I mean if you think about high performance athletes and I've got a really good friend who's an olympic athlete they learn how to manage their energy from the get-go it's not train train train train train train train train train and keep training keep competing it's train, compete, there's recover, there's rest. There's a lot of visualization. There's a lot of mental work that goes into it. There's a lot of taking care of their bodies that goes into it. And yet, in the workplace, we don't train. We come in with the credentials. We come in with our quick minds. We come in with all of the skills and knowledge that we have, and we put them to work, and we put them to work, and we put them to work, and we keep putting them to work. But we don't necessarily, and I think at least for most people I know, unless you have reached a level where you have a really good coach, most people aren't taught how to be a high-performing leader. True. I'm curious what you think. I see your smile. I'm curious what you think. Yeah, well, so many thoughts going through my mind because I'm thinking about even the book and the early drafts that I've been able to have a sneak peek on. This is powerful because for most of us, we enter the workforce around the age of eighteen. And I know from the guests I've had on People First, I know from the work that I've done with leaders around the world that There are a few folks who may enter a career that they have known for a long time this is what they wanted to do. But for many, they get onto the hamster wheel that we're told is adulting and career. And invariably, we're starting out on a journey and a definition for success that others have laid upon us. Absolutely. So whether it's parents, whether it's teachers, whether it's books, whether it's the movies, whether it's social media. And you've already touched on this. Success is a false summit. There is always a version of more or bigger or shinier behind every milestone. And I think that's part of the myth that we're told is that, like you said, if we work hard, we will reach success. And there is no reaching it. Unless we personally set a definition for it, which is where the magic of your research is. And book comes in because it's live your opus, raise the bar on your dreams, not somebody else's. Live and work and achieve better, more meaningful, sustainable outcomes. So you can still hustle if that's what you want to do. You can still burn the candle at both ends. But as you've touched with your friend who's the Olympic athlete, you're making sure that in burning the candle at both ends, you're actually not going to burn out. that you're thinking about how you maintain the energy over your whole life, not just this little bit of it. So that was part of what was smiling because I didn't know which thread to pull. So back to you, Janine, which thread shall we pull on together? Yeah. I mean, there's so much in that, isn't there? I think, I mean, I think there's maybe something different that I think about energy that's different. So I know in the literature, you know there's lots of evidence that shows you know stewarding your physical mental emotional and spiritual health is a way to replenish and I think that's a really great foundation in the book I introduced a tool called the opus eight energy system and it came out of my interviews with folks who went through massive reinvention and then other folks who actually are living quite healthy you know successful quote-unquote lives um and I would say are high performing. And it sort of think about when you think about reaching success or having this sustainable success I think about sort of three levels if you will but there's they're in an eight so they're intertwined but anyway the first is you need a strong foundation so you need energy you need connection with yourself you need connection with others that's what your work's all about right your connection with others you need stability you need a way to be stable when everything is changing around us um the second piece is alignment so you need clarity about where to direct that energy, right? So that it's being directed to the sort of right things that you care about that matter to you. And then you need endurance. So you need an ability to maintain your stability, your strong foundation, and you need a way to maintain your alignment. And I think in the world that we're in, doing that's really hard. I think being a leader in the world we're in, we're being pulled all over the place. The pressure is very strong, right? Lots of high pressure, especially right now. Lots of responsibility for emotionally taking care of others, for that matter, let alone taking care of yourself. And so how do you create a strong foundation? How do you figure out what alignment means to you? And how do you build then over time the endurance to stay on that path, to live this life that you bring in energy and you're focused on the things that matter most to you because you know what they are. And like you said, I think... These definitions of success that were handed to us, and I'll only speak for myself, definitely handed to me, and I just took them with me. I thought I was so independent, but actually I took them with me. And not until I was forty-eight years old with burnout did I really sit down and say, whoa, what's this all about? What's life all about? What do I really want? Because I had already achieved many of the things that I was supposed to achieve. So I'm curious, for those who know you, as they look at the life that you are living now, your opus, compared to the life that you were living then, external trappings aside, oh, you're living in Provence versus in Europe. But what would be the shift that others would notice without even knowing that this work had gone on behind the scenes for you? Honestly, I think the spark. Like there is a glow. There's a spark. And it's not about attractiveness, right? It's an inner thing. So the ambition is different. It's still there. It looks different. As you said, the trappings are different. I was in London before burnout. I moved here once after. So there are things that are different. outside. But I think what people notice now is, wow, you're focused on something you really, really care about, whatever anybody else thinks, and you've got a fire in you, you've got a spark that we can see. And it's not that I didn't have a fire about the work, but there was definitely a sort of a deadening, obviously, by the end. Going through the motion. So it's that inner spark that lights you up. And as a result, lights is infectious to those around you. So stability, alignment, endurance. Those are the first three of the eight. They're the three pillars. So the eight fit within there. Those are sort of three pillars and the eight fit within there. You know, it's about vitality. It's about connection. They fit in there. But those three sort of anchoring, that's where we're focused. Okay. So in your interviews with hundreds of people, you will have met leaders before, during, and after their own version of burnout. Right. Now, I know until I- Or change. Or change, yes. Or pivot, whatever, however you want to think of it. And I know that my crucible moment, which resulted in me leaving my office and having to go and lie on my patio furniture, it's part of my new keynote where I talk about you don't need more meetings, you need more moments. But I remember lying there at the clouds, looking at the clouds. I could barely even focus on the cloud formations anymore. I just knew I couldn't do anything. I had hit a hard stop. And yet my mind didn't stop. I mean, it couldn't work on the clouds, but it was berating me. You talked about the judge earlier on talking that I was being a wuss and to get up and walk it off. And there was nothing to see here. And come on, you've dealt with more complexity than this in your life and in your career. And yet I still could not move. So I'm curious in the interviews that you've had with others who may be meeting that moving towards that moment or past that moment. What are some of the signs or symptoms that says, hey, you're ready and ripe for something refined, something for you? What are some of the themes that you've identified that we're either all looking for, needing, that might help those listening and watching this episode catch themselves sooner and take back their own power and control? That's such a great question because I don't want them to be where you were or where I was, which was quite a similar place. I mean, I think it can be as basic as you look at your diary if you're in the UK, your calendar if you're in the US, and you don't really want to do any of those meetings. Like it's just, you can do them. It's not that you can't, you can. So just like, really? You know, that's, I think that's a sign. And it's not Sunday scaries or whatever the Monday thing is called, but literally just if you're looking at your diary and you're just like, I don't want to do any of this anymore. I think if you are sleep, if work is in your mind overnight, continuously, I think that's a sign. I think if you're feeling resentful, with your colleagues or resentful, maybe even resentful with your family because you're trying to juggle. So resent, feeling resentful, I think is something important. What would you add? It's that feeling you talked about, you used the word connection and that's core to the work that I'm doing because I recognize that despite all the people around me, in whatever sphere you are looking, whether it's family, whether it's friends, whether it's work, whether it's colleagues, I felt disconnected. And that sense of isolation was its own worst enemy, because instead of leaning into that and either closing the gap, reconnecting, instead of asking for help in a voice where it sounded like I meant it, I actually lent back. and continue to try to work harder, faster, smarter on my own. I mean, I've been doing this for thirty years. You'd think I'd be able to work it out by now. And that was the myth I was telling myself, which is if you show this flaw, others will find you wanting. And just keep going another week, another month, get through this project and all will be fine. And before you know it, those energy reserves that you talked about earlier on, it's not just one of those indicators that is blinking red. It was all of them. I think there's questions, too. Like, there are people who say I need to find my voice. I used to say that. And I now understand that that was code for actually being completely out of alignment. I just didn't know it then. You know, not owning my story. Not... being present enough and connected enough to myself and those of them as we've talked about. If you're asking, you know, is this it? If you're asking, when is success going to feel like success? Or when am I going to get to enjoy all the stuff that I built? If you're asking, you know, what now? These questions come to us. They come to us when we're driving, they come in between meetings. You said something interesting where you said in relation to finding your voice, you coupled that with owning your story. So say more about how we either disown or don't own our stories and how does that help when it comes to living our opus? Yeah. Yeah, where do I start on this? Because owning your story is one of those fundamental underpinnings within Live Your Opus. It's in the opening chapter. And I think... Sometimes that sense of disconnection we feel isn't just that we're overtired or exhausted or we haven't talked to the people we love most lately. It's also that we haven't actually connected back with ourselves. We don't really remember who we are. We're now this whatever, VP of whatever, doing whatever we're supposed to be doing and trying to get this stuff done and trying to succeed. paying tuition or getting the groceries or paying the mortgage or whatever the things that you do when you're an adult, right? And sometimes, not for everybody, but for some people and many people that I meet in my work, we didn't quite bring ourselves along. strangely and we've dropped the pieces of our story that maybe I know in my case the pieces that didn't look tidy and neat you know the pieces that didn't fit the white picket fence that I was supposed to to have up that's how I was raised I don't know if other people were raised that way and actually it's owning your story it's especially the bits that you don't like that actually gives you strength that actually lets you stand in your power, that actually lets you be whole. This notion of being whole sometimes gets a bit of woo-woo vibe to it, right? But it's in owning your story. You can step more into the world you're trying to build, the life you're trying to build. So I do think we tend to leave who we are, pieces of it, behind as we're moving up, for example, as we're changing careers, as we're building a family. There are many reasons why it happens. So hopefully... The intent is you provide us with some clues that, okay, we understand that there is a little bit more of who we are or who we want to be. Find our voice. that's focused on the future. So still high achieving, because high achievers tend to be focusing forward on what's next versus on the past. So what are some of the tools and tactics that you've seen work that people will discover in Live Your Opus that helps them to build that future life and work that better fits their dream and aspirations? So the book includes a twelve week course, a snack in the middle, and you go through the four stage journey. It's transformation journey. So you go through connect being the first phase. Very important to connect with yourself and with others. Dream is about sort of rethinking success, rethinking ambition, reconnecting with things that matter to you that maybe you've lost along the way. Compose is about bringing those things together, thinking about what might this now look like. Sometimes it's a small tweak. Sometimes it's a big tweak. Depends on what happens in your dream phase. And then embark, which is stepping forward and bringing along with you new tools to help you become the person that you're trying to become. And in Connect, Yeah, I think as high achievers, we are often always focused on the future. So actually in Connect, you start with the past. And I know that that can be controversial, but the book is filled with fun exercises and looking back enough, to figure out who you were and what you loved about yourself and what you loved about what you were doing at those different points in time, for example. And then looking at the present and really looking at it. Again, many people are running from the present, right? Forget the past. Forget the present. Let's go to the future. So actually, let's look at the present because it's probably not all bad. It's probably some pretty good things there. You're probably very proud of what you've been doing, what you've achieved, what you've accomplished, who you are. people around you who you love, and then it's going to the future. So we've talked about Live Your Opus, but for those listening and watching, give us the full title for the book and tell me about the inspiration behind the title. That's right. I didn't come back to that. So it's called, the book is called Live Your Opus, Reclaim Your Energy, Redefine Success and Create a Life That Truly Matters. Live your opus. So opus is a masterpiece, right? And usually used in musical terms and other creative arts. And we get one life. I don't think we remember that a lot of the times. And I did get that message hard when my mom died. And I faced many, you know, Bronnie Ware's regrets of the dying. And I faced many of those regrets at forty-eight, which was a gift in hindsight. And to be able to then say, OK, I get to live this life. I don't know what I want it to look like. And I do believe that we often think my work is really important, my family is really important, my degree is important, whatever, my community is important, my colleagues are important. But I now believe that you are your greatest work, which doesn't mean that you're completely selfish and don't care for others or for your community or for the world around you. But if you don't start here, If you don't claim yourself and think of your life as an opus, then you're shortchanging the one life you have. And so that's where Live Your Opus comes from, because I think there's so much in our world that is pulling us away from doing that and actually changing. We get one shot in a sense, right? We can try it lots of different ways. It doesn't mean you make one opus and that's it. No, you're going to create lots and lots of opus. But if you think about your life as a great piece of work, how might you treat it differently? And it takes energy. It takes claiming your energy. It takes defining and redefining success because it's going to change over time. And it takes creating a life that's meaningful to you, whatever that means. I love it because it talks about being present. I think it inspires one to take back the driver's seat for one's life versus riding in the passenger seat of one's life. And what you said there about we are each individually our greatest work. Could you imagine? I get goosebumps just thinking about it. If we were all living our best lives, living that and creating that opus, the ripple effect and impact it would have for those that we care about, for the things that we care about, the experiences we dream about, all of that coming together is powerful. Now you're giving me goosebumps. And I think that you just said something important, which is it's about putting you back in the driver's seat. And I think what's really hard as a high achieving person is you've gotten the degrees, you've gotten the roles, you've gotten the promotions, you've got the paycheck, you probably got the house, you've got the car, you've got whatever. You think you are in the driver's seat, actually. That's the thing. I never thought I wasn't in the driver's seat. I made key career choices. I made key life choices. And I thought I was in the driver's seat. But I didn't really understand, in particular, that veil of definition of success that we talked about earlier. How much that was driving that. How much that had control over me. which driver's seat I was in, right? And I think that's the fundamental shift, that we have so much more agency than we know. And I think especially in the world that we're in now, where every day the news is really depressing and difficult, and we're facing lots of crises, and we have emotionally charged workplaces, and leaders are under intense pressure, just to say the least. I think now is the time to sort of say, actually, what do I need? And then how can I bring all of that to everyone else, right? Because when you claim yourself as your greatest work, when you start to live your own business, you say, you start to bring the best of you to everyone, to everything you touch. And it comes easy. It's that we talk about push and pull, right? Sometimes in sales and it's, you're just flowing, right? You're not, it's not a fight. Doesn't mean that every day is perfect. Doesn't mean that you're not working hard. Doesn't mean that you're not hustling sometimes. Doesn't mean that you're going to get every win. That's not it, right? But there's something different about how you feel as you're going because it's how you handle the setbacks. Hopefully more joyous. So Janine, as we come to the end of our time together, how can people learn more, both about the book, but the work that you're doing and how they could work with you individually or collectively? Probably the best way probably is stay following on LinkedIn. Connect. And when the book comes out, pre-order, that'll be available coming up in August, September. And I'd love to stay in touch. Okay. And as we come to the end of our conversation, which I have enjoyed every minute of it, what's a message that you would hope that leaders listening to this are taking away from our conversation? It's never too late to claim the life that you want. Never too late. You can be in your twenties, you can be in your sixties, you can be in your seventies or anything in between. And it's never too late to just pause, reconnect with yourself, reclaim your energy, change the definition of success and move forward in a new way. Now is the moment. Well, Janine, thank you for joining me here on People First. I will make sure all of the information is included in the show notes below. So thank you to you for watching or listening. And please join us for our next exciting conversation and guest. Thank you, Mark. All right.