People First! with Morag Barrett

Welcome to this week's episode of People First. And my guest this week is Peggy Kendall. Peggy is the co-author of Trust at a Distance, Six Strategies for Managing Remote Workplaces, which we are going to be diving into in more detail in a moment. Peggy is a researcher and professor of communication studies. She's been researching and writing and speaking about the impact of technology on communication ever since MySpace logged its way onto the scene. She also consults with executives and organizations across the country that have been trying to navigate the remote workplace. And as somebody, SkyTeam has been a remote company from the get-go, and many of the leaders I coach are working in that hybrid environment. So Peggy, welcome to People First. Well, thank you. I am so happy to be here and talk about some of my very favorite topics. Well, me too. And it's interesting because this hybrid remote working, it gets a bad shtick. And we know it gets a bad shtick because we're seeing the thou shalt return to the office mandates. And I realize there's more to those requests than meets the eye. But as somebody who has embraced a hybrid and remote workforce, both with my team, but also with my clients, I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly. So I'm looking forward to our conversation so that we can help the leaders around us elevate their trust at a distance. But before we dive in, I want to know, because as you know, my whole passion is around creating cultures of connection. And I believe that success in business is fueled by relationships and success in life is powered by connection. And so when it comes to relationships, especially relationships at a distance, what role have they played in your success? Well, I think part of it is when I first started, I've been in academia for decades. long, long time, twenty five, thirty years almost. And that's always been face to face. And when I started doing some consulting with the firm in California, we are fully virtual and it took a long time and a lot of stumbles and some things worked and some things didn't. But I'll tell you, I am closer to some of those people that I know through the screen compared to the people that I see every day in the office. So there's something about, I think, the screen and intentionality that has allowed me to be maybe a little more authentic, a little more confident in certain situations. So I'd say that's part of it. Oh, I love that. I mean, that's music to my ears. And I'm going to give a quick plug to the second edition of my first book, Cultivate the Power of Winning Relationships, because I added a whole chapter about the impact of the pandemic. And to be honest, before the pandemic, I was of the mindset that if you want to be a better human, you've got to learn to do that in three dimensions in a room with other humans. And that comes the same with building trust. It comes with let's go grab lunch. I see you at the water cooler. And, of course, the pandemic put pay to that. And I had a similar experience as you. I made the intentional choice that I was going to lean into the camera and the virtual relationship and share a little more and go a little deeper. And some of my newest and closest friends I've made through Zoom, but I've also made without ever having met them in real life in three dimensions. And so some of this is mindset intentionality. Yeah. So what's the first tip you would give to leaders to building trust at a distance? Well, I mean, I would say just exactly what you said. It has to do with intentionality, because I think when we're face to face, we do things we don't even realize we're doing. You know, we are picking up on people's nonverbal cues. We see them, we have these, these unplanned conversations in the hallway, all of those things slowly build trust, but you don't have those when we're talking on this screen and you can't see anything around me. So what we have to do, I think in the virtual workplace is be really intentional about creating spaces. where people can connect and ask questions and do the kinds of things that would happen normally, but don't happen when you just have like one Zoom call after another on your schedule and that's the only time you see people. It's a whole different kind of communication that's really transactional, right? You need some of that unplanned space in there. So I love that. It's the scheduled spontaneity in unplanned space, because even though I'm working from home, you end up in the back to back Zoom meetings. You don't have time for a bathroom break. And the irony is it's right there. And what I noticed very early into the pandemic as well is we'd get onto those back to back Zoom calls. And the first thing I could guarantee, the first thing out of somebody's mouth was going to be, I'm sorry, I'm late. And you'd look at the clock and you'd think, yeah, if we're lucky, late. And then one. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my goodness. I'm late. And that I don't know what pressure the camera puts on us to make sure we're late, because as we all remember, when we were in an office, you'd saunter in five minutes late because I had to come from the other meeting room or a different floor afterwards. to this meeting and along the way somebody would stop and say oh Peggy do you have a minute and then you'd think oh I need a quick bathroom break or hey I need to grab a cup of coffee so we would roll in five minutes late and nobody would bat an eyelid but during those five minutes those in the room or on the call were starting that the small talk before getting to the big big talk So for me, you just mentioned it, that scheduled spontaneity, creating intentional spaces, even in thirty minutes, just to shoot the breeze. How was your weekend? What have you got planned for the holidays? Hey, as much as I can see the reflection of the snow in the glass, tell me about the weather. There are clues to be had when we slow down and pay attention. Yeah. And I think for managers, that's especially important because it's more than just task oriented. This is what you have to do. It's being available. And I'll tell you one thing that just I have seen over and over. It does not work. It's when a manager says, well, OK, if you have any questions, just let me know. And for the most part, people are not going to be like, well, I think I'm going to just go into the dark here and like ask, you know, ask my, my boss a question because in the research that we did over and over again, uh, people, employees that were working fully remote said, well, I don't ask questions because they seem so busy. You know, they, they seem like they're, they're really busy, really doing a lot of things. And it's like, well, did, Did you ask them, are they really busy? No, they just seem that way. So in other words, we don't, you know, we don't have the information that we have when i go down the hallway and my colleague in my office i can see when they're busy but when i don't get that on this virtual space then i'm not sure and i just default to my assumption that they're too busy they're too busy for me i don't want to bug them it's probably not that big a deal i think i'll figure it out by myself And then that's exactly what kind of starts this spiral that tends to end in loneliness and marginalization. And it gets worse when leaders and I fell into this trap early. You're on the call and you think, well, if I just keep my hands down, I can quickly do an email. And we're all doing this. And here's the thing. The camera just exaggerates. I see your shoulders going. I see you glancing away. I know you're multitasking. And that fuels the story that not only are you busy, but you're certainly too busy for me. And that destroys and erodes trust. So in your research then, what's the biggest risk if leaders fail to prioritize building trust intentionally at a distance? Well, I think what happens is people are doing their own thing in their own place. And it doesn't take very long at all before they're feeling alone, forgotten, marginalized, really uncertain, confused, kind of doing their own thing. And then as a manager or an organization, you have people doing lots of their own things and you don't have that alignment that you can have. You don't have that feeling that people belong and are working on something together and are achieving things together. You just don't get that when people are not being connected to each other. So if you are a team leader or a team member and you're feeling friction, things aren't happening as fast as you need. It's crickets when you're asking a question. It feels to be a come and present your homework one at a time as opposed to a collaboration environment. These are all symptoms and signs that maybe it's time to shake things up a little bit. Right. And psychological safety, right? And in that situation, people aren't going to admit when they make a mistake. They're not going to ask questions. They're not going to, I have a really great idea. I know it's crazy. They're not going to say those things. It's going to be just quiet, one-way communication. So in your research, I know you and David Horsager, your co-author, identified six strategies. I'm sure they could have been ten, but six strategies to help create strong virtual and hybrid workplace relationships. Again, music to my ears. So what are the six? Let's list those out to start with and whet the appetite for people to get hold of the book, Trust at a Distance. So what are the six strategies? All right. So, amplify communication. In other words, over-communicate. Clarify direction. That means getting aligned with mission and purpose. Build predictability. Those like check-ins that happen on a regular basis. Redefine accountability. In other words, figure out a different way to measure how people are performing. Create connections. Figure out how to connect people with each other and with the organization. And equipping your people. And equipping your people has to do with the negative impact for not careful of how, especially early career people that are working online are going to have, I think, challenges networking and building the kinds of networks and pathways to career development. And a lot of times, Learning and personal development happens when you watch other people, but you can't do that when you're in a screen like this. So making sure that training takes place. And then also that chapter covers the whole hybrid thing and proximity bias. And how do you make sure that you don't forget about the people that are in line instead of just focusing on the people that are right there in front of you? Wow, there's so much rich content in there. So I know from my own experience of writing my own book, there is that message that is so important to share for others. But in doing so, invariably, there's an aha and medication we need to take for ourselves. So as you and David worked on this book, you and he work remotely. Which of those six strategies was the one where you thought, oh, hang on, we need to pay attention here? Yeah. I mean, I think part of it was mindset because my research had been interviewing employees that work online. And so basically I heard story after story of my manager did this, my manager did this. And so I came up with a whole list of things that leaders needed to make sure that they're doing. But David Horsager, on the other hand, works with leaders. and he heard like all the frustrations leaders had like why aren't people doing this why isn't uh culture happening uh those kinds of things and when we got together it was like uh you know what this is bigger than just the leaders have to do you know these five things um it's not that easy it's not easy being a leader online So mindset shift, I think was part of it. Uh, but I know for me, this whole idea of predictable check-ins. You say we are going to meet every Monday at ten o'clock. Yep. You meet every Monday at ten o'clock. Um, cause I'll tell you when I first started doing some online work, uh, I was new. I didn't know what I was doing. Well, kind of new, but not really. And I was working with this online firm and the leader was like, oh, don't worry, you know, we'll help you through this. It'll be great. And as we went, I realized that I had so many questions. I was so freaked out when I would be meeting with a client. I didn't know exactly what to say. I would really have like this whole list of questions to take to these check-ins. And what would happen would be like, The first check-in, it was like ten minutes. And then he had to go. Like, oh my gosh. And then the second one, oh, his meeting ran long. Let's just meet next week. The next one is like, he was on email. I know he was on email for sure. And he really wasn't paying attention. And this kind of happened over and over again. And I realized this was absolutely affecting me. It was making me feel like, I wasn't worth the time really. And really start to question like, can I really do this? I don't think I can do this. I don't think I'm good enough or smart enough. Maybe this isn't the role for me. So just personally, I have found predictability like showing up and these check-ins, I'm not talking like hour long check-ins, even if it's ten, fifteen minutes. But if I know I'm going to talk to you uh monday at ten o'clock i'll have my questions together but if i'm not sure if you're going to show up i i am not sure so i just try and figure it out or you know and then the stories start going in your head like i'm not good enough i don't belong you know i'm not smart enough i don't know how to do this so and here's the irony you're a professor That comes already. You are a smart, independent, successful woman. And I've had those thoughts as well, because when it's me, myself, and I in this office, and I haven't heard from Eric and Ruby recently, it's too easy to think, well, they've got it easy, or I'm the only one struggling with this, therefore I'm broken. And it's interesting how those stories, A, fill the vacuum of other information, very negative, and are personal. And so as leaders, do what you say you're going to do. If you're going to have the check-in, make sure you have the check-in. And if you're having the check-in, it's not that you're checked out and multitasking. Be present. Emote to the camera. Lean in. And that will reap the benefit. And as you and I already shared, some of our newest friendships through the camera, it is possible, but only when we are fully present and intentional in how we show up. And I think it's so much harder to be present online because I got so many other things like right there. If we were sitting face-to-face in a coffee shop, I'd be like, yeah, like really into what you're saying. But you have to really think about it when you're online. Okay. So the six strategies, amplify communication, clarify direction, build predictability, redefine accountability, create connection, and leverage communication. in-person experiences. Now, that was interesting because this is all about trust at a different distance. Tell me about leverage in-person experiences. Well, it's interesting because I do think there's so many important things that can happen online. You can build a strong, rich culture online. But the more David and I talked, and with my experiences, there's something about being face to face and sharing the same space with someone that you can't replicate digitally. It just isn't the same. And, um, One of the leaders that we've worked with, he says, you know, I save a lot of money by having everyone remote, but I have to, in my budget, intentionally spend a portion of that savings every year to get people together at least once or twice. Because when you're together, if you do it right, not only... Do you have people like getting to know each other and building those foundations? But you also have people beginning to align once again with the mission of the organization, being reminded why they're there, especially if they can kind of speak into maybe the strategy or the next project going forward. So that in-person time, I don't think, as a communication professor, it's different. And when done right, I think you do have to have some time when people come together. And when you do, don't make it all a business agenda. Include that time, as you said, for one of your other strategies, connection, which is the kickback, tell our career journeys, share a little bit more about our whole lives, not just the next project spreadsheet or widget that we need to make together. Right. And then, you know, you have that because when, you know, communication studies have shown online, it takes longer to build trust. It takes longer to build psychological safety and relationships and all those things. But it happens. It happens over time. But when you're face to face, it happens so much quicker. Then you've got this foundation. And when your team is together then virtually, things will go so much faster. You'll be able to solve conflicts theoretically so much easier because people trust each other. And that's the key. We're setting the foundation of, yes, good days are even sunnier, but we're also setting the foundation for when the inevitable hits the fan, how does the team rally together? And if I know, like, and trust you, I'm more likely to lean in and roll up my sleeves and help fix a challenge than to sit back and suddenly be unavailable. You mentioned earlier... Go on, sorry. Well, sorry. And it's easy to... You know, when we don't have all of the information, like what happens online, we tend to work off stereotypes instead of off of what I really know about you. So my assumptions and my stereotypes are absolutely going to make it more difficult to deal with conflict and to have empathy for what you're going through. Okay. You mentioned earlier about the impact of hybrid work on emerging leaders, those who perhaps don't now have access to mentoring and coaching and in the moment role models because we're not in the same location. But what are you also observing as a communications professor for those who have grown up and know nothing but a world of Slack and text and WhatsApp and Signal and email? Well, if they're like my son's email doesn't exist to them anymore, but they've got this plethora of connection at a distance and tools. How is that impacting the next generation of leaders? Well, it's interesting, you know, because I've been teaching media ecology, the impact of media for twenty, twenty five years. And so I've seen these transitions in the young people that I work with. And I have to say, I, you know, I've been talking about, oh, you know, this is the way that technology changes us. And this is how social media will impact you. And I think the students I have today are so much more aware of the negative impacts of what it takes to be disciplined of how to manage some of those things. Now that's not true for everyone. clearly. But I think they're smarter about how technology is shaping them, I think. So I don't know, I think they're more, they know how to use the online piece. And they feel comfortable expressing themselves, I think, especially using, you know, text and Slack and things like that. But I think they also understand the limitations of some of those tools as well. Okay. The book and I think the leaders I coach, when they think about hybrid and remote working and the challenges that come with it, they start there with the challenges. So in your research, I'm curious as to the upside. What's the good that comes from building trust at a distance? Well, I mean, I think the most obvious one is that you're able to hire people basically from all over the world that are qualified. So your pool of talent is just expanded significantly. I think the other thing with all the people that we interviewed and surveyed, they might've had trouble with managers might've had trouble with their team, whatever. Um, but almost every single one of them was like, I love working online. I don't want to go back full time. So they, so employees see this as a real perk. And I've heard so many times people say, um, you know, they got problems, but I'm sticking with it because I appreciate the fact that they allow me to work from home three days a week. Um, So I think there's a talent pool, people are becoming more satisfied. I think, I don't know about you, but when I can be at home and kind of figure out how I do things and how I manage things in my workflow, I'm much more productive and I can make things fit with my talents and my strengths and my schedule, my biological schedule and some of those kinds of things. And if you think about it, accessibility becomes a real benefit because you have people that it's very difficult for them to get into the office because of physical or mental health challenges. When they can go on the screen, there's so many more things that they're able to do and more able to participate. I was just at a conference for neurodivergent employees and trying to figure out how to best serve that population that works differently. And their big thing is, I just need flexibility. And flexibility is what comes when you have these screens and you can work online at home. So I think those are some of the obvious ones. Other things that we've heard from leaders, a lot of leaders, you save money from rent and donuts and whatever, coffee. But for instance, things are documented. Like lots of things are documented because when you're online, you have these Slack conversations instead of just talking in the hallway. I know when I'm at my office and my university, we make a ton of decisions in the hallway. you know, it's like, oh, quick, I have to figure this out. But it's documented when we're online, because we can go back to those Slack conversations. And so better documentation. So those are some of the positive things that can happen. And just in terms of psychologically, when we are talking online like this, people can feel a little more confident. So someone who's, let's say an introvert like me, I'm okay in a big group, but sometimes it's hard to speak up. It's much easier to speak up when things are a little more structured like they are in a digital space. It's the yes and, isn't it? It's one mode over the other is not better or worse. It's just different. And the reality is a hybrid working environment is going to continue. Even with those organizations that are enforcing a return to the office for employees, those employees are still going to need to build trust at a distance through the Teams calls, the Google Meets, the Zoom calls with clients, customers, vendors. So this is part of how we need to learn to adapt and turn the intentionality up as to how we show up and how we moderate the spaces that we own. So when it's my Zoom room, I can include those few minutes of small talk. I can make sure that I am using digital tools to include all voices, not just the chatty voices like mine. Right, right. So... As we come to the end of our time together, I'm curious if you had to boil your message down into one or two sentences for leaders, what's the key takeaway that you would want leaders to hear? Well, I think it has to do with what we started with. It's you have to be intentional. Building trust at a distance is different than building trust face to face. So you have to be intentional about sharing information about using words to express things instead of just your face, and making creating those spaces where people can come together, ask questions and build some of those relationships. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Peggy. Where can people learn more about you, your work and, of course, this fabulous book? This fabulous book? That fabulous book. There you go. I have the digital one, so I can't show it up. Put your screen up there. Amazon, trust at a distance. I've got a website at PeggyCandle.com. David Horsager has an entire leadership trust, Trust Edge Leadership Institute. And he's got really excellent resources there. The things that he does with trust are just amazing. Just really excellent. Really well done. I follow his newsletter and his website, rich, rich resources, both there, but also in the book that you've co-created today together. So Peggy, thank you for joining me on People First. I truly appreciate you and this conversation. Great. Thank you.