People First! with Morag Barrett

Welcome to this week's episode of People First. And my guest this week is going to bring so much joy and fun to the topic of HR in our conversation today. And she is Mindy Honkoop, who is a seasoned people leader and HR advisor with more than twenty four years of experience optimizing organizational success. As the founder of Agile in HR, she empowers leaders to align culture to revenue strategy through her workshops, advising and speaking. Mindy has held executive roles, including chief people officer at TCP Software and HR leadership positions at Care.com, Spiceworks, Ziff Davis and Expedia. currently serving as VP of Customer Strategy and Ops at MeBeBot. She is also an active board member of Love Justice International and co-founder of Austin Women in Agile. Outside work, Mindy enjoys reading, which is how we met, traveling and hiking with her dogs. Mindy, welcome to People First. It is such a pleasure to be here. It's a joy. I am excited for our conversation. We've also had a little bit of time in the green room. We've been exchanging emails since we first met a couple of years ago. But I'm going to start with table stakes. What brings you joy? The core of what brings me joy is people realizing possibility. I love the So tell me more. Tell me more. People realizing possibilities. I mean, I was thinking chocolate, wine, walking with my dogs. People realizing possibilities. So tell me more. What does that mean? What that means is being able to work with people who, and I also had a passion. I just have always had a passion to help people, to make a difference. And I love being able to see people that, you know, may not realize that they can do something. They never thought, oh, that could be me. And being able to walk alongside them, be able to guide them, to be able to move from the mindset of I can't to I can. And I can make that happen. And that is so rewarding when that light bulb goes on for someone and to have just been a little part of that journey. And that is what actually gives me joy. I love connecting people. I just I love being able to make a difference. It's interesting as you talk about that, because I think about my own life journey and often I'll be asked, well, what advice would you give your younger self? And after I rattle off, you know, like Google, Microsoft, Apple, all the things I needed to invest in, but didn't. It's that realizing that one has a voice, one can do more sooner. So when in my first career in banking, I remember the bank did a women in leadership program. And I remember thinking, but hang on, the women who are in this program, we're not broken. It's the system that's impacted. But I kept shtum because you respected your elders. Or the, I can't write an article on that because I don't have three PhDs and yada, yada, yada. And the reality is we all have experiences to share. And had I realized what I know now, I think we can all go a little faster, a little bigger, a little louder sooner versus waiting for permission. Now that's not advice to go running through the halls right now. I'm trying to listen as I think or think as I talk is probably better. it resonated for me what you're saying in terms of that being the catalyst where somebody realizes it's just that they haven't learned how to do it yet not that they can't do something it's just they haven't done it yet so what are you what are you learning about yourself then what are you discovering in yourself that you didn't think you could do um I you know such a good question how did i thought I could I never thought that I could get up on stage and sleep I never thought that I could be talking with my dog I was gonna say I think one of your dogs has got an opinion on that right now I you know I also i grew up in a I grew up in a single parent home. And even simple things like I never thought that I would get married. I didn't like and I was like younger, I never thought that I would be the person that would get married. I just thought that I would be single. Because I just I didn't see that. And I never thought that I'd be able to trust another human that deeply. And There's so many things. But then I saw people that were in my community that did have healthy marriages when I was younger, that were successful businesswomen, that were, like, founding their own companies or writing their own book. That's still something I want to do. And I'm starting to think, oh, maybe I can do that. But it was by hearing others. One word at a time. One word at a time. It's probably seeing other people do it and talking to them and how do they do it and learn from them. I've always been super curious. And those are the things that then I start to seek and start to say, oh, wait a minute. Who has done this? And let's see if that's something that I even want to do in order to inform how do I go about doing that, really about the possibility. I had some really amazing humans in my life when I was younger that kind of helped pave that way for me and kind of really took on that mindset that I saw that that is a different way of thinking that I could think about possibilities because it's different, right? It's a mindset that you need to choose to have. So tell me about those humans or humans in general and how have relationships at work impacted your success? Relationships at work. One of my early mentors was definitely I've had some incredible managers like early on. One of them, it was Larry Benish. And I'm still connected with him today. He was my first ever people manager. And he actually picked me out of the do not hire bin. at Microsoft. He was looking to build a new team of contractors that were screeners, call screeners, calling people out of the cold to interview them and see if they would be interested as Microsoft as a career. And it was in the university recruiting team. And I was in this bin that someone had looked through, but because I didn't have I had a background in HR. I didn't have a background in recruiting. I was away to school to be a social worker. But he wanted to hire people that were outside the mold, outside of the box, that felt differently, that were experimental. And on my resume, on my CV, it said it was an employee referral. And my friend said it would be a sin not to hire her. And he was like, well, I've never seen that before. He took me out of the do not hire bin. And he called me. He said, fifteen minutes. He's like, I can talk to anyone for fifteen minutes. It ended up being a long conversation. And I ended up being hired. And he believed in me. He saw even something in me that I didn't. My friend was the one that put that employee referral. I was like, I'm not applying to Microsoft State. I am a social worker, but I love technology. And so that conversation, it was other people seeing what was possible in me. And then Larry Benesch taking a risk on me and then him being able to give the right opportunities and that trust that he had and teaching me how to experiment, how to be curious. And there I also met a lot of women on that team that ended up being my leaders and taking me under their wing and being able to kind of take that spark of my hunger and thirst for knowledge and really push me and take me outside my comfort zone. Because I really liked, I had a hard time taking risks and they really helped me see that you have to take a risk in order to truly learn. So I'm going to bring all of those threads together because we first bonded when my latest book, You, Me, We, why we all need a friend at work and how to show up as one first came out. So that's your learning. You said earlier that you never thought you could run your own business. And yet here you are now. several years into Agile in HR. So tell me, how has taking that risk to move from the perceived safety net of a corporate career to an entrepreneurial one, how's that going? It's also giving me joy. Hurrah! It's going... It has its ups and downs. I just did an article on LinkedIn. I'm kind of looking back at twenty twenty four. I think twenty twenty four was a really pivotal year for me with Agile Nature and seeing myself as a business owner because I had still been interviewing full time up until the end of twenty twenty three. So twenty twenty four was the first full year focused on Agile Nature. And I had a leader there. in my life, a coach, and she really challenged me to be all in. She's like, you're never going to be really great at anything unless you just really put yourself into it. And so that's what I did. I said, I put on the squirrel suit. like the flying wingsuit. And then I jumped off the cliff of being an entrepreneur. And I just, I was, how have you learned Mindy? I've been in so many situations in my past that I didn't know what I was doing. It's because I was curious. I was resourceful. And she helped me understand like what I have done back then, what I help other people do. What do I mentor and coach other people I need is just to step into the very thing that I help other people with. And and so that's what I did at the beginning of twenty twenty four. And I realized that actually I had a lot of really great things that I just needed to lean into more. and meet more people that were doing things that I just didn't know yet how to do. And so I just built my network of people. I started to actually say what it is that I do and how I do it and how do I add value so I could attract the type of work that I was seeking to do more of. And this past year has been amazing. So do it, do it, do it, do it. Tell us then what is it that the work that you're truly passionate about when people say, so what is it that you do? What's how do you respond? How I respond now is I truly connect the conversation in the workplace ecosystem of culture and revenue together. And often these conversations happen separately. I often say the people strategy, if we have a people strategy, is talked about over here with culture and employee experience and engagement. Yet the strategy of the company and the revenue or profitability is over here. And we need to put those together. And we need to be able to think through those things together, not separately. And so that's what I help do. I help come alongside often the HR leaders that are in organizations of typically fifty to five hundred employees. It's usually tech companies and be able to help them be able to shift that conversation. and the steps to take to do that. The most joy I've started to really niche in is coming alongside advising and mentoring, often young, first time heads of people. And they may not even have that title yet. They're just the first person in that company doing people work. and being able to help them realize they have the skill set to do this and the capability themselves to do it and help them be able to take those next steps and how to start to think differently and how to start to ask really different questions and how to learn and how to drive impact. I love what you shared there because our lives have been similar, different timelines maybe, but different, similar journeys in that my finance career was doing just that, advising companies and listening to them talk about what they did, what they made, how they organized their systems and processes. And the reason I do what I do now is the successful organizations and the successful leaders were the ones who didn't just focus on what they did. They also focused on how they did it, i.e. who the people were both at work, on their team, but also in their customer pool, in their communities, because that is how you create that sustainable ecosystem. And there's power. So why do you think it is... that many leaders are still stuck in, oh, that's the soft skills, hugs and lollipops. We don't need that. Toughen up, cupcake. Walk it off. And just focus on the transaction versus the interpersonal piece. Oh, that question is so layered. How complex and often... often I actually see that they don't know how to do it any other way. They've never seen it done differently. You don't know what you don't know. And so they just need to even understand, you know, what is holding me back from being able to see the possibility of working in a different way. And, and they just need to start. Sometimes they haven't had anyone come alongside of them and ask them different questions that create the awareness that of what that could look like and how, can that be possible? And that often is just like having, asking some different questions of leaders and helping them see things in a different way often is that light bulb moment that they need. Other times it could be because they were, um, unfortunately working with a people leader maybe that had done something a very specific way and had been doing it for that way for over a period of time and it was a playbook that maybe worked really well um for a while but unfortunately um with maybe they brought that to a different company into that leader and unfortunately it had a really bad experience because it didn't fit right it often doesn't It doesn't you can't cut and paste because each company is different. It's a different ecosystem. It's different people, a different purpose and a different why. And they've gotten frustrated. Right. They've gotten paid. That didn't work. So I need to go back to something, something that maybe I've known and I was comfortable in. A lot of times it's also about uncertainty and the unknown is something they haven't done. And they're already overwhelmed that it feels like taking on a whole nother new thing. So tell me a little bit more about how you get the pulse on the culture of an organization as it stands today, because I think that's useful also for leaders who are listening, who may be transitioning. Maybe they're about to join a new company. Maybe they've been there a year or ten years. Who knows? And being able to articulate the environment you're in now and how is that helping or hindering our ability to flourish? is key to success for us individually and collectively so how does one go about getting a finger on the pulse when you're working with a new client how do you get to the the rub like yeah what is your current state like and who is who are the employees in your organization And what are the behaviors that are showing up every day? And are they actually aligned to your values and how you're actually going to be able to get work done? How are people making decisions? Who are the key stakeholders? How are we communicating in this organization or not? And so it's all about how are we starting to build relationships? How are we talking to people? And often people aren't talking to people. And in this hybrid remote world that we're in, we may think that we're having a conversation, but then all the nuance and all the subtext is getting in the way. And we're actually not understanding. We're not interpreting even the words that we're speaking, even if we're speaking the same language. And so it's also about, are we building meaningful connection and being able to actually make sure like, yeah, I mean, I hear Mindy say this, this is what she means or, um, Am I going back and checking because or am I just going and running off and doing what I think is right? And it's truly so when I go into an organization, it's about getting to know people. I know that sounds so silly, but engagement surveys and all of that, yes, those are good, but they're also about a point in time. Have we actually built that meaningful connective tissue in order to understand who the humans are, what motivates them, what do they care about? Being able to understand when someone's having a bad day is so important. And I know that seems so trivial and it may be too easy, but it is about taking the time and getting to know the humans. and having those conversations and understanding the work that they do and how are they doing that work. I think that's the good news, though, is that those less informed may dismiss it as being trivial. But the fact is, it is easily done within the conversations and the work we're already doing together. It isn't necessary to do more Yet more longer hours, new systems, new. It's not about perks. I mean, ping pong tables are great and an endless snack cabinet is lovely. But only if I'm actually going into the office, if I'm working in a hybrid or in a remote version, then that doesn't serve me. And we can all do fake perky for thirty minutes and then hit the thing and go, oh, God. what did Mindy want us to do now? And then we carry on about a day and you might be oblivious to it. So that's slowing down to your point, checking in on how was your weekend? Hey, tell me about, I'll go the other way. Tell me about the poster you have behind you, like we did in the green room. Just getting to know what makes your people tick, what brings them joy. can make me feel like you see me as more than just a pair of hands. And if I feel seen and I feel heard, then I'm more likely to feel like I belong. That you care and that you're valued. So what's the biggest downside that you see of organizations and teams that continue to resist that mindset and maintain more of a it's not personal it's just business mindset the deterioration of trust uh the yeah they're going to get some results they'll be able to get to some but it's usually at a greater cost both monetary and in humans people want to work where there's trust where they they do feel valued um And, and the turnover, right, that if you don't have trust, you're usually typically will have higher turnover rates, you'll have lower customer success scores, because if people really aren't caring, they're not probably going to be treating your end customer in the best way. The knowledge drain, when you have such turnover, you're losing that knowledge with each person each time. There's so much of these business metrics that are actual people metrics. I often say customer churn is impacted by, you know, how, you know, with our customer success teams. If someone is having a different person to talk to every month when they have a customer success question, you're not building that relationship. But the people, our employees in our organization aren't staying because they're going to go find a place that does care. And they may have less pay. but they feel cared for. As soon as you say feel cared, I immediately thought about Steven Rogelberg and his new book, Good to Meet You. No, Glad We Met. Glad We Met is the book. Sorry, Steven. And it's all about the power of the one-to-one conversation. Again, in my experience in the corporate world, it's invariably the one that keeps getting cancelled or rescheduled, especially if you are a top performer. And the leader's time and attention is invariably disproportionately invested in those who are struggling. And therefore your top performers are the ones who may be overlooked. So what advice do you have for leaders in terms of now that you've got new year, new intention, how can they make the most of their time to build a culture of connection and show that they care for their team members? I love that you said one-on-ones because people said, Mindy, that seems too simple. The one thing that I usually first invest my time with almost every company, if I were to say, if there is one thing that I do with the most of my clients, maybe probably higher, it's the one-on-ones. That's where we often start, is one-on-ones. Because often, if they are happening, let's say a company is good at one-on-ones. But then they're just status updates. How can we refine that? It's not about doing more. It's about getting smarter with what we're doing. And it is the one-on-ones. And it's not that you want to go on and on about how is your day. It has to also feel like you mean it. You can't just ask a question and not mean it. So as you also find out who am I as a leader and how and who is the person I'm talking to and how do I develop a meaningful, quick connection? They truly think that I that that it truly like I do care about how your weekend was. And I want to know and then we'll get into the meat of the conversation into the work. And those one on ones are just so are so pivotal because it does send a message if you're keeping it. Are you rescheduling it a lot? Are you off looking at all the alerts on all your phones and all your computers? Have you? planned for this meeting. People can feel those things. And then it's about in your team meetings. Are you late to your team meetings? Have you been thoughtful about your team meetings? Are you being able to make sure that there's not group think happening within your team meetings? How often are you as a manager talking in your team versus letting other people talk? Those are really powerful too. And also having team norms is another great way to build healthy teaming and trust. And at the end of the day, it also too comes back to not just meaningful connection, but it's because you can have trust with each individual, but it's also about as a team, do you have trust? So now that you've moved from a corporate role to entrepreneur, that's required both of us at some point to think about and redefine our own definition of team. So what have you learned about yourself? and creating that connection in the work you do for you. For myself. Really good. Yeah. It's like trusting myself, first of all. Do I trust myself? I actually have one on, I've learned how to have one-on-ones Oh, because it's often you get like busy into the work and it's about having one-on-ones and check-in, like what are my goals and where am I at achieving them? Being able to also reflect on like, okay, how did that go this past week? What, maybe something new I can try and journaling that. So it's kind of like my own one-on-ones. And then I think about like team members, while they may not be directly like employees of Agile and HR, I do have team members. I have an accountant, I have my coaches, And so how am I deploying them and thinking about them as resources to help me being able to make sure I'm asking for help of them when I need to, that I am when I don't know something that I'm going to them because I've hired them and outsource them to be an expert for a reason. I am not an expert at all things. And I realized, where are my weaknesses? And that's where I first have really looked to fill the gaps and created a team of people around me to help leverage that to be successful. Because I myself can't do that. And I also have my therapy, my furry therapy dogs here alongside me too. You cannot get away and you have me in your sphere. So feel free to reach out at any time. So as we come to the end of our time together, Mindy, what is one message that you're hoping that leaders at whatever stage of their career are taking away from this conversation? That changed me. There's so much change. Everything in the world around us is changing. Business is changing. And it can feel really overwhelming. And it's easy to get into scarcity mindset. And I just really, I would challenge people to really be reflective and really think, where am I? Am I feeling like everything's overwhelming, that I can't do this anymore? Am I a less than? Or I'm in a mindset of abundance. where I am, it is possible that I, there is something, there's always something I can do to shift, to try something out. And so it's just, if you are feeling in that sense of overwhelm, where is that one person that you can go to to help you find what is that one thing I can do? Because you might not be able to do it alone, but with someone else, There's always something that's possible. Oh, Mindy, you're talking my language. Ditto. I would applaud that. How can people learn more about the... Oh, look at that. We've got hearts. Let's do that again. I don't know. But anyway, you get hearts. So where can people go to learn more about Agile in HR and the work that you are doing? Yeah, they can go to my website at www.agilenehr.com or they can find me on LinkedIn and reach out. I always love connecting with people. It's been such a joy talking to you. I know it flew by. We will do it again offline and with coffee or something. But I'll make sure all of that contact information is in the show notes. I'm assuming it's going to be below because I'm going to point down here. But it could be there, there, who knows. But it's going to be there. Follow up, connect with Mindy. Yeah, that's right. If I could do the music, I would. But thank you, Mindy, for being a guest on People First. I am energized by our conversation and I look forward to our next one. Awesome. Thank you.