- [Intro] Welcome to SkyeTeam's "People First" with Morag Barrett.

- So my guest this week is my friend and colleague Patricia Downing. And Patricia has one for me, one of the most inspiring leadership journeys to share, in that she has a career that spans more than 40 years that covers design, construction, startup in mining. An industry that I look at it and think, well, there's a man's world. And for more than 40 years you have been a global leader working around the world. We met in Chile and in Peru. You've worked in Australia. You're working now back in Peru but living in Costa Rica. You've been here in the United States. And you just have been an inspiration Patricia. So thank you for joining me here on "People First" and for agreeing to share your leadership journey.

- Thanks so much. I really appreciate this. I've, I've decided actually recently, not too long ago, maybe two, the last two years. I've been so busy working that I forgot to share my story. So now I'm taking all the opportunities 'cause I realized when I was looking back and I'm saying where are the other ones? And I realized that there's not a lot behind me in the crowd. And I thought it was so important to start sharing the story more. And I started doing that in Peru and a little bit more like women in mining or some of the other chances to chat. So when you said let's chat, I said yes. Because I think it's so important to do that, right?

- It is, and before we can go into the current story and also the peaks and valleys along the way. I want to go back to your origin story. When you were a little girl, what did you imagine that your career of 40 years would be? What did you want to be when you grow up?

- And this is one where I, I'm going to tell you what I tell my kids, right. Is I haven't decided yet what I want to be when I grow up.

- We are the perpetual child.

- Well I think it's the perpetual learner. And I think that this is an important part of the journey, right? Because and, and again, when I tell my husband oh I want to go do that, 'cause I want to keep learning. And it is about that. It's about that journey of learning. And I'll have to be very frank. I never thought, you know, when I was little, I would never have imagined myself where I am now. And I do think that the curiosity was there. And I think that that's an important part of it.

- So what was the inspiration then to go and study engineering and mining, et cetera, at university. Where was the pivot point that brought you to the first step on this journey?

- I'm going to say that it probably started when I was little. And again, I was born in Costa Rica and I was raised in, in, until I was eight. And then I, I went to the U.S. but I knew ever since I was little, I loved math. And I remember my brothers were older and I'm the one that was helping them with some of the math problems. Okay.

- And, and I do remember that story of saying, you know that I've always, I've always really enjoyed math. And, and that was, as I was growing up I knew I wanted to do something. I was really driven. And I think that happens with first-generation people who live in the U.S. you know, that come in and, and are really inspired to learn and, and do other things. So I knew I wanted to do that but I didn't know I wanted to be in engineering. I had no idea . I had no idea what engineering was 'cause I grew up in San Francisco and, you know never really had, had that experience. I do know that I wanted to be in math. And then I thought, well math may not really give me the economic. And so it's like, what do I use for math that's practical and then I went into engineering. And it was literally that decision. And it's, it sounds a little crazy, but that's, you know sometimes in those moments when you're young you don't really realize what you're getting into. And to be frank, I had no idea what I was getting into.

- So tell me a little bit what you were getting into even in university time. 'Cause I, I studied applied mathematics and physics at high school. And those classes were small. Four and six of us I think. I was the only girl in the room. And so I can only imagine that when you went to university, were there any other women studying engineering at the time or were you alone?

- Let me even go back to high school. 'Cause my, my mother worked really hard and she put me through a girls Catholic high school. And in the Catholic high school, they had things like home ec and I had sewing and I had shorthand and they cut the physics and the math. And I ended up having to go to the junior college. So they have a city college in the U.S. And so while I was in high school, I was actually going off campus to take classes for physics and math. And that was something that was not a common thing. And, you know, when people would tell my mom, it's like why do you push her so hard? And I was actually pushing myself, you know? And, and I didn't know, and, and really, you know you don't really know what the consequences of that are but you know, you just kind of push yourself. And so that was really important because at that time you know, the ability to get counseled, for example to go into engineering was mostly, you know, you know going into nursing or some of the other, you know, the administrative, the secretarial or the home-ec, you know. It was really pushed in terms of saying, hey, you want to be an engineer? And I really didn't know I wanted to be an engineer then. I just knew I wanted to get a good job and, and, and a good education. So, you know, I pushed myself into those. And so once I got into the university, I already had more than a year's worth of, of classes, right? And so, and I had my daughter young. I have three kids but I had my daughter young. So I was even more inspired to get through school. And I was in a lot of classes, the only, the only woman and, and even more as a Latin woman, there was, I don't think the other women were Latins in engineering.

- So were you welcomed in that environment? And as you transitioned into the workforce, was there a hey, come here or what were some of the barriers then that you recall or did you just navigate them because it's your life, this is what you just had to do.

- I think, I think this is a really important statement. So for example, because I did have my daughter young and so I would go to classes sometimes and try to take her and I couldn't take her into class or I didn't have anybody to take care of her. So I ended up having to do some of the classes, just study. And, and again, I didn't see myself as being stopped just because I was a woman. And as a matter of fact, I think I tried harder. And so, and some of my professors were pretty inspiring about saying, you know, she's actually doing it and she has a child and she works and, you know, and, and, and to be driven by it. And I don't know where the differences, you know at what point in my life I could have maybe taken an easier route but at that moment it was like, you have responsibilities, you just got to do it and, and not take no. So in those first early years, I think when I went to Bechtel 'cause I worked at Bechtel initially. And then there I was doing engineering and, and again it's a journey. You don't, the most important part about going to university is the fact that you have to keep learning because they don't, they don't teach you everything. And then to get that curiosity about, about that. And again, I started off in nuclear power which if you think of mining,

- Yes.

- If you think of mining.

- The power plant in Nevada. I'd forgotten, yes.

- Yes, but I actually worked my first, my first jobs was as an engineer on a nuclear power plant job. And again, there was a lot of ex Navy people and pretty much almost all men. Few women, especially in the technical side, they weren't, they weren't that many, you know. So, I did get lucky. There was a lady that was, at that time she was the, the head of our, our, in, in an engineering position, in an engineering management position that was also there. So there were a few examples. I think the most important part of all was the attitude from the team that it was truly about learning. So I didn't quite feel a lot of discrimination for it but I also never felt like I could use, you know me having a kid as saying, I can, you know make excuses, you know. I always really try to do everything that everybody else did. and then some.

- In what ways did you find yourself adjusting you to fit in to those environments and to be successful? I think in, and this is one of my funny stories. So when I first started working and again, having grown up in that Latin environment and in a Catholic school you know, about respect and quietness and everything, some of my first feedback was she's a good engineer but she's pretty quiet . And I always tell the story because I think that that was a really important transition point of the fact that, you know because most people who know me say, "Well, you're not quiet." But I tell people that I work at it because part of my personality is more introverted. And so I realized in that conversation that it was a wake-up call. So there are certain moments in life where you get a wake-up call. And I think that was a really important one for me saying, okay, I need to speak up. I need to be able to do that. And I need to be able to continue to grow or else I'm just going to stay in a niche. And it's really hard 'cause in order to change you have to understand that you need to change and you need to adapt. And that I think was one of those defining moments early on that said, okay, you know, I need to be able to speak up. And I think as women and I'm going to reinforce the Latin culture where we're not taught to be really vocal and we're not taught to push back and we're not, you know. And then you have to respect and, you know. And at that time, and again this was a long time ago, was the fact that, you know it's something to work at. So it's one of those things that are really important in the career of, of learning where you want to go, you know.

- And I think you nailed it there in terms of there are cultural attributes that we have. I mean again, if I'm doing the British stereotype of you don't wear your heart on your sleeve, you put on the mask at work. And I recently had the opportunity to talk with Sally Helgesen about her book, "How Women Rise". And of the behaviors that she identified that hold us back. They not championing our contribution is one. And certainly to your point, finding our voice especially in times where to have a contrary point of view might be held against you is something that we need to shape and have the courage to step into. So how did you make that pivot? 'Cause your point, the self-awareness and getting the food bank is the first bit but then what do you do differently in order to show up differently?

- And again, it's taken a long time, okay? And, and, and part of it I'm really grateful for having the opportunity to have work in a company like that though. And one of the things in that company is that you need to be assertive. You need to, you need to stand up or you're, or you lose yourself in that, in those conversations. And I was very lucky to be given different opportunities in that, in that, in the leadership pipeline to be exposed to where you had to do that. I did have also, I think my, my first time where I actually left Bechtel after my first two years, and I said I want to go and learn other things. And I think that's the learning bug also, right. To learn different things because I think the experience is really important. 'Cause you can learn it in a book but the book doesn't give you everything you need. And I said, no, I want to go learn that. So I think that those also was a really important transitions, you know where you make those decisions. And I didn't know where I was going. Morag, I had no idea, but I did say I want to learn that and I want to learn something else. And so I didn't want to stay only in power. I wanted to get the experience of different industries. And that was something that was something in my mind that says I know I want to go and learn those different things, right. And I think along the route there weren't a lot of women mentoring, but there were, there were men that were actually good mentors for me that I looked at and that the, you know, and again said it was a little bit of the old school, right. And the old school was actually a tough school, right. Where if the feedback wasn't you're a nice person or you're a really good one, you know, they just gave you more work . That's the pat on the back. It wasn't, you know, how do you feel kind of a sensation? And we always kind of used to laugh a little bit and say yeah, they just throw you in the water and see if you can float.

- Okay.

- Right. Cause it's, but again, it's a tough industry and it was, and it was truly about, you know, learning those things and the fact of being in, in raising your hand and say, hey I want to try that was also an important part.

- So for people who are listening, what advice do you have for them on how to find and what makes for a good mentor?

- And I think this is really important in terms of, because a mentor could be somebody that you actually talk to or somebody that you see, right? And you know, you always think of a mentor as the person that gives you also the positive feedback of who you want to be. But there's also mentors that by their actions are also giving you mentoring by the actions of what you don't want then. No, you don't want to be for yourself, right? So I think it's really your perceptions of that. And again, the mentors that I had, weren't people that, that today is what you think of as mentor. Because the mentoring is like the one-on-one where you'd have a chat and they know you, right? And that wasn't the way that I saw the mentoring especially in the first or, you know over 20 years of my career, probably 25 years of my career. It was more of the people around you were mentoring you but they weren't sitting and chatting with you. You know, it wasn't that way. You know, it was afterwards, it's become more of a, of a, you know, assigning a mentor and, you know, having somebody that you can chat with. It wasn't like that formally, right? But it was all there. It was for you to see and find it and take advantage of it, right? And I think, I think the hardest part was actually finding a voice and raising your hand and say, hey I want to go and try to do that job. I think that's, that's where I think we have to break loose. And especially for women in, in the fact that we don't have to know everything to go and try a new job.

- Hmm-mm, yeah.

- Right? And I think that's one of the biggest part. So the mentors that I've had have been just, you know work bosses that I think of, you know and that I respected deeply. A few of them was like, hmm, maybe I don't want to be like that, you know. And I think that that's a different way to see it, right?

- So how has the conversation and accessibility around gender equality, gender opportunities, opportunities for women in the industry that you're in. How has that conversation changed over the years?

- The last couple of years, I'm going to say the last, well, I'm going to mention BHP 'cause in BHP they decided to have a quota, right? And they said, no, you know, by 2025 they're going to be 50%, okay. And I have a personal feeling that quotas sometimes don't necessarily work because having gender diversity is, it's especially important that, that we don't forget that the only way that works is if we have inclusion. And so just having the numbers doesn't mean it's going to work, right. Because in order to have those quotas to be filled, if I say, look, I'm going to be in, by 2025, 50%, that means you got to get 50% of the men out. And so when you're doing that and then the inclusion part, then the, then you have a problem because it has to work both ways. You need to, we need to be able to say, look we do want to get to the, to the diversity but we can't forget the inclusion. And sometimes, or to focus on the let's get the numbers in and we're not training our leaders and we're not training the environment in the, you know where we're going to put these women in and to make it inclusive. And when you look at mining, for example. I'm going to give the numbers in Peru for example, for the last 20 years. It's only on like from a little bit over 5% to a little bit over 6% in 20 years, you know that I've been going back and forth to Peru. And so when you look at that, that means that it isn't just about the, can we educate them? You know, can we educate women? Can we get them in the door? The thing is, can we get them in the door? And that's why I said to you, it's really important for people to be able to see that I've been in the business for so long, because there aren't enough women staying in the business, you know? And again, you know, especially when you look at it and we might get them in the door a little bit but do you have the women that are in the current, you know in their 50's or 60's in which we still see that we're at the peak of our ability to contribute, right? And that we do have a lot of give to give back but that maybe we weren't able to retain them.

- So what, what are some areas that cause people to self-select out or just not be retained?

- Again, my, my, my big feeling is the inclusion part. And we tend to have conversations regarding women, the ability to keep women. And we, a lot of the times we either relate them to having families, right? And I always say, well, men have family, women have family. You know, it's really important that that's not the driver to keep women in the, in the fields, right? It's about, it's about the other things too. It's about the treatment and the inclusion and the respect and the ability to be able to, to say there is a career path, you know. And a lot of times I say that women do not volunteer to go into more senior positions because they're looking, you know if there's a hundred things in, in, in the job description and they're missing one, they're saying, well I'm going to go learn that while men will say I got two of them, I can learn the rest. I'm a fast learner. You know, I am not a wing it. Right?

- Yeah.

- And those are the fundamental things when you talk, discuss with women today and say, no, be fearless, try it. There's no problem in failing, you know, and just doing it. And I think for the longest time I was working so hard to get everything, you know, and to learn everything. And in reality, you know, when I look back on it I tell, now for women mentoring them, I say, look you start 10 or 15 years before I did. Please do that. Do not waste time trying to get everything that then I ended up having to go through to get where I'm at. You could do it earlier. Because I do think that that's really important. And, and like I said, if you're getting into, you know, your, your 50's and you're saying, well where's the path and I'm, and I didn't really move. If you don't move in your 40's it's going to be really hard to move in your 50's, right? And so I think it's really important to encourage you know, young women, especially in, in, in their early phases to go and try different things. To go get that experience, to just try it. You don't have to be a 100, you know, a 100 out of a 100 to go in and say, hey, I can do something. And I do feel that the younger generation today is a little bit more empowered in that. And because I can see it in my girls, okay. It's like, be fearless, go try it, you know and don't be afraid to, to fail.

- So as you look to the future, what's next for you? 'Cause you're, you're not ready to hang, hang up your hard hat or anything soon. As you look to your leadership journey, where are you looking to learn, grow and evolve?

- Oh, I am having so much fun at this. One of the things that happens right now in my work is, my, my actual job right now is really complex and hard, okay. It's a really tough job that we have in order to deliver the value that the company wants delivered. That's on the one hand.

- what some of that complexity and hardness is all about?

- Because Las Bambas is an amazing asset, but again, it's in Peru where we have social political complexity. We have to do permitting, we have to do design. So when we talk about development we have to deliver a huge development portfolio to be able to unlock the value of this asset. And we don't have a lot of time. So it's a really complex problem, which I actually love . And so it's about getting the whole team to deliver. And it's about master planning and it's about, you know how do you get the engineering done fast and how do you get the execution done fast and effectively? And, and so the whole portfolio is, just on the short term is quite big, right? So these are mega projects, right?

- It's not just the technical skills that you're tapping into on the engineering and the planning and the execution. It's the human skills of communicating with a very broad range of stakeholders and people with opinions on what the mine should or shouldn't do for the communities around it.

- Yes.

- Chess game in three and if not more dimensions.

- Exactly. And you know me more 'cause I'm more technical, right? I have a really strong technical skill. I work, I work really hard at the people skills, right? Because I feel more comfortable in the technical space. And so I'm always working really hard. And so right now, the way I look at it and it's even more than, than, than 10 years ago is I look more into truly mentoring and delegating and leading the team to deliver, right? And I think the hardest part is, again the stakeholder relationships. Trying to get everybody to see the same vision. And when you have a more technical mindset, getting that vision to be communicated in a way that other people can also understand it. Sometimes we miss some of the information and that's, that's, that's a challenge, right? So right now what I'm saying is I'm having a lot of fun because it's a mentoring, it's really is about getting the rest of the team up to speed. It's about, it's about, you know my project managers and also the engineers and the other team members to be able to get them there. And it's fun. And it's, it's, it's an area where I really enjoy it. 'Cause it's at that point in my life where I'm not trying to show anybody else anything other than the say, you know what I mean? It's not because I want a title or anything. I'm just doing it 'cause I really do. I'm really passionate about the, about the, the job and no I'm not going to retire. And actually my husband, Oscar was bothering me. He goes, you wrote a few years ago. And he was like, yeah, retire. It's about time. And this whole COVID thing hit, right? And he goes, well, maybe not. Because he knows he's going to become the project, right?

- No, no, no, no, please not the 24/7 at home project. What a nightmare, oh gosh.

- Yeah, so right now I feel like I can continue working. I do love this planning phase the most because it is about thinking about how to do the things upfront. 'Cause I really liked to, I liked the orderly planning and then at some point I'd like to just do maybe more, more conversations and then maybe more mentoring and also maybe teaching. So I don't think I'll retire . Plus I don't do gardens. I don't do any of that. I don't do cooking. I don't .

- No, but I do remember some good meals together and good conversation.

- Yes . Well I can cook . I can cook but it's not, you know what I mean? It's and, and so this is, and this is the other thing I think over the years my job has become my hobby. And that I think is also important. That's that, that when you do something that you really love and it's not the same as, you know it's not an onerous kind of thing. It doesn't mean every day is, is, is not filled with problems. You know, I still have a lot of problems in everyday trying to solve, but it's not that heaviness of not that you're doing something that you don't like, you know?

- I love it. So as we come to the end of our time together, Patricia what advice do you have for somebody who might be earlier stage in their career with regards to forging their own path and breaking ground? What advice do you have?

- I think it's, my biggest part is don't be afraid. Don't try to over evaluate it, over plan it, you know. Trust your judgment. Have the few people around you that, that support you, you know. 'Cause I don't think when I look back on it my family was very supportive of everything I've done. And I think that I always tell people is that I'm able to do everything I can because my husband and my kids have always been my biggest champions, right? And I think that that's also an important part too is because sometimes in that journey when you have conflicts is you need to have a balance and have that support as well. So again, and enjoy the ride .

- Enjoy the ride, you're right. If you're not having any fun, you're doing it wrong. That's my latest tag phrase which is, if you're not having fun you're doing it wrong and you either have to change your perspective or change the environment or just, just change.

- Yeah, and don't be afraid. I mean, we have moved so many times Morag. I mean, and projects do tend to be like that. So if you're afraid to move, I think sometimes is you can still find, you know, the, the, the, this profession and stay in one place, you know and then in a certain community. But it's hard to do it in the jobs that I've had, right? 'Cause you go to projects, right? You're not into an operations that you're going to stay there for, for 25 years or 30 years, right? And so I'm, you know, you have to be able to think about that and not be afraid. And every move has always had an angst and you know, nothing's perfect. You lose the box and, or, you know, and it's, it really is about not letting it bother you so much. And just, just trying it. And I do feel like a lot of the journey has been on a lonely road because I haven't had a lot of women that have been able to, to say, hey we're on that journey together. But like I said, now I'm trying to make sure to speak to so, so we can get more. Well, I appreciate them. Patricia, I want to say thank you for your friendship and inspiration over the years because your thoughtful confidence and guidance have meant so much to me as I worked alongside you and your teams. But I just want to know, I want you to know that I truly appreciate you. And thank you, thank you.

- And thanks for having me.

- [Narrator] Thank you so much for joining Morag today. If you enjoyed the show, please like, and subscribe so you don't miss a thing. If you learned something worth sharing, share it. Cultivate your relationships today when you don't need anything before you need something. Be sure to follow SkyeTeam and Morag on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And if you have any ideas about topics we should tackle, interviews we should do or if you yourself would like to be on the show drop us a line at Info@SkyeTeam.com. That's S-K-Y-ETeam.com. Thanks again for joining us today and remember business is personal and relationships matter. We are your allies.