- [INTRO] Welcome to SkyeTeam's People First with Morag Barrett.

- When was the last time you paused to consider what makes for an awesome leader and more importantly, to consider whether or not you're living up to those expectations. Well, this is the podcast episode for you and I'm excited to welcome my guest this week, Alain Hunkins, who is the author of the new bestselling book, "Cracking the Leadership Code". And he's going to be sharing with us insights from years of research and working with companies and leaders around the world. But Alain is one of those leadership experts who connects the science of high performance with the art of leadership. And I can't wait to learn more and to share with you all some of his philosophy so that we can all be better leaders together. So Alain, welcome to people first.

- Thanks so much Morag like I'm so excited to have our conversation here with you today.

- Well, I love the fact that I was reading the book, "Cracking the Leadership Code" and we already have somewhere in common. Did you know this? Well you wouldn't.

- I wouldn't know this, no, cause you were reading it.

- Well, there you go. So I'm reading and I'm getting to the point, and we're going to come back to the interview, but you're talking about your leadership lessons, going back to the late nineties and your big aha with Gary, and maybe we'll talk about this, but you met with Gary at the Galaxy Cafe or the Galaxy Diner in Hell's Kitchen and I stopped and I thought I've eaten there, but it just goes to show, small world.

- It is a small world and hope, I haven't been in New York in quite some time, I hope the Galaxy is still open and doing well as I hope a lot of restaurants are these days.

- Yes, indeed. All right, so before we go to the, so the the crucible of the book, et cetera, let's talk about your origin story and go back to the beginning. So when you were a wee lad you're sitting in elementary school the teacher comes to you and says, "So Alain, what do you want to be when you grow up?" What was your answer?

- I said, Mrs. Newman, I want to be a leadership consultant author and coach. No, that's not what I said at all.

- You were advanced in your years.

- No, what the heck. I mean, this is the beauty of hindsight, right? In hindsight, at all the dots connect, but at the time, now here's the interesting thing because you know people are like, what do you want to be when you grew up which was such a stock question. And my stock answer to that, I never knew, but what I always came up with was I want to be happy. And the reason I think I said, I want to be happy, cause that's, I was raised by my grandmother, my primary parent was my grandmother and my mom was there too, my parents split up when I was one but my grandmother was at home raising me and she said, whatever you do in this life and be happy. And that stuck with me and the other unique thing about this origin story is so my grandmother, well my mother, the reason I have this French name is my mom was from Belgium so I was like, what's with the "Alain" it's "Alain". Yeah, so my mother is from Brussels Belgium and she's born in 1935. So if you know your history and she comes from a family of Polish Jews who were living in Brussels in 1935, well, war breaks out in 1939, Poland is invaded, Belgium is invaded in 42 and my mom spent three years in hiding in the Belgian underground as a hidden child, away from her mother from the age of basically seven until she was 10. And they were reunited after the war, my grandmother was actually arrested and put in a concentration camp and then liberated and they were reunited. So, when my grandmother, so every pore of her being was about being a literal survivor, right? This is what, who she was, and so like her gift for me was like, be happy and so that's why when I say, and so in a lot of ways that history and that origin has very much informed why I do what I do cause I've been fascinated by people, as you can imagine, it was a pretty funky home life growing up when you have two Holocaust survivors as your primary parents, because it's trauma, right? It's post-traumatic trauma big time. And what I noticed, and I grew up in New York City in the 1970s, so I'm at home and then I'd go to school and there's an old nursery rhyme song, ♪ One of these things is not like the other ♪ ♪ One of these things just doesn't belong. ♪ And so for me, it was always trying to make sense, like cognitive dissonance between my home life and pretty much everywhere else. And realizing that the stories that we experience and the stories we tell ourselves shape our reality and shape how we affect other people around us. And I think, so early on I was asking these deep questions about meaning and purpose, I mean, I'm sure you're familiar with Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning", I mean, that was sort of my grandmother's life. And so I got that, I didn't read the book when I was six, but I sort of like living the learned experience of that when I was six. So that's a long answer to your very simple question.

- Questions are never simple and I appreciate the candor cause you're right, it's the context that influences how we show up as a leader, certainly in the early stages, cause most organizations I know from my own career tended to be sink or swim. It's the school of hard knocks and as we're exiting school life into work life it is our familial role models that influence us from the start and then we start to, if we're paying attention to adjust and grow and find our own leadership voice along the way, but what's amazing to me in the work that I do and the work that you do is what percentage of employees still suffer from toxic leaders or believe and perceive that the current state of leadership is poor. And so why is that? I mean, this is common sense but it's an uncommon discipline.

- Yeah. So it seems like it's common sense yeah, and the research that I did, I'm sure you've seen similar studies that on average, something around 23% of people say that their leaders are effective. I mean, a shockingly low number and that number has not risen above that much in decades. And I did the research on this, I was like, so why is it? Why is the state of leadership so poor? And actually my kids who are now 16 and 13 shared a wonderful experience with me years ago that really helped me figure this out. So they must've been, my son is now 16 Alex and my daughter Miranda is now 13, so 10 years ago, they're six and three. And the two of them, as six and three-year-olds will want to do, are playing in the in the living room and getting very loud and goofing off. And I have to admit I got a bit triggered and I came into the room, I came into the room and these are the words that came out of my mouth. I said, "Would you to stop behaving like children?!" I'm telling you this for two reasons, number one, that is a ridiculous thing to say because obviously they were children. But as soon as those words came out of my mouth, I was in complete shock because that exact phrase with the same tonality, was the same exact phrase that my mom used with me and my brother when we were kids. So unconsciously I'd repeated the behavior of the previous generation. So this goes back to our question, so why do people lead the way they do? Well, we copy the behavior of the previous generation and they copy their leaders and so on and so forth. So the question becomes who started this chain because it's not like organizations have been around for thousands of years the way we know them. But they've been around for over a hundred years. If we look back at the dawn of the Industrial Age, we had a very different relationship. This is the industrial economy where basically employees were seen as labor. As Henry Ford famously said of his workforce exactly, why is it every time I want a pair of hands they come with a brain attached. So this is the mindset, is that basically, and he got his ideas from Frederick Winslow Taylor who's considered the father of the field of management and Taylor, if you read his book, "Principles of Scientific Management" which by the way was voted as the number one most influential management book of the 20th century, he writes that the ideal workman, and again, men at the time should be, and I'm quoting this now because I could not make this up, "would be so stupid and phlegmatic that he more nearly resembled in his mental makeup, the ox, than any other type." So this idea of we don't pay you to think, we pay you to shut up and do your job. Why? Because I say, so that is why. And so that is part of the inherited leadership legacy that we have. The other piece goes back to I think, the family system because most families don't run as a democracy, and it's like, why do you do this? Because I'm your dad, that's why. Until of course they're teenagers and they rebel, right? So what, in both cases we're dealing with here, Morag is power struggle. And once you have that emotional power struggle internalized in your bones, it's very easy to fall back into those patterns even though you know you're supposed to be this enlightened, empowered, we're in the 21st century, we're a knowledge-worker age, I need to facilitate the growth of others, when push comes to shove and we stop firing for our prefrontal cortex and we are in that just, just because I say so that's why. And that I think is at the core belief system and the mindset of what keeps us stuck in ineffective leadership.

- So I love all of that and I can relate to it as a mother of three boys who are now six foot tall. And when I teach emotional intelligence, I give the small print at the beginning which is all of these concepts we're going to share, are going to help you to be more effective but they don't work with children. They're born with a PhD in psychological warfare and they're designed to push your buttons. But we do need to be self-aware, so when you were writing, "Cracking the Leadership Code" what do you see then as the pivot points that are the secrets for strong leaders, especially in the 21st century.

- So here's the thing about, I mean, to me, the first competency of emotional intelligence is self-awareness and you don't really get to self-awareness until you hit, and I think you know Tasha Yurik, so and she has a fabulous book insight, she writes about these as these alarm clock moments. And sometimes you choose your alarm clock moments, but more of the time they're thrust upon you. So the idea is that you need these wake up calls, these alarm clock moments where you go, "This isn't working anymore. I just, I can't keep doing this like this." In fact, in the book I write and I'll tell you this story about this guy Matt, who I met, who was a leader. And Matt was one of these leaders who was very much stuck in this old school suss. He got promoted, he was a... When I met him, he was a district manager for a national retail franchise, in fact, when I met him, he was already ranked number one out of all one hundred. So I said Matt, number one, that's impressive. Have you always been a top performer? And he said, oh no. When I started, I was like 84th on the list. And I was down there for a number of years. So what was it like back then? And what Matt's journey really encapsulates a lot of what happened. So he said, when I started, I got promoted, I was the district manager, I thought my job was to be the fixer. Every day they would get the key performance metrics printed out, they call it the hot list. And the first thing he said, he'd do, he look at what was in red and not measuring up and like a bowl to that toria door, he's like, "That's in red" and he'd hop in his car and he'd drive from store to store, and he tell the store managers, this is wrong, you need to fix this, do this, do this, do this. And he said, "And I was working so hard and I was struggling and I was going nowhere and the worst day was the day I realized there were people on my team who were quitting and I didn't even know their names. They've been hired and fired and I just didn't even know who they were." And he realized he needed to change his approach which is he started to get to know people and build actual relationships that these are people they're not just store manager employee, stock boy, right? You're not just these roles, they're actual human flesh and blood humans. And then he said, instead of, you still have the same information from the hot list, but instead of saying, "Hey, this is wrong. Do this, he'd stop and say, well, here's the information. What do you think we should do?" So he's took a much more coach-like approach, right? So asking instead of telling, and then together they'd co-create their solutions together. And what he found is his numbers started to go up. And the kicker of the whole story he said was that now being number one his life is so much easier and less stressful even though he's getting so much better results he's working less hard, it's easier than before. And so for me, what Matt really exemplifies and with his story are what I've called the subtitle of the book, the "Three Secrets of Building Strong Leaders". First he's connecting, right? So he's connecting a real relationship with people, two he's communicating, specifically seeking to make sure they have common understanding and three they are collaborating together, so working together to make things happen, so connection, communication and collaboration to me are the major skill sets, of what I call the facilitative leader. That's about how do we make things easier for our people especially in this knowledge work age, where there's so much speed and complexity that we already have to deal with.

- I love it, you're a man after my own heart. It's the concepts that underpin cultivate my first book in terms of the whole bringing the human to work, versus the politic silos and turf wars that can keep us apart. So in your research, what are some of the fears then that prevent leaders from connecting?

- No, it's such a good question. Cause it'd be like, "Oh, connection and that seems obvious I should do this." Yeah, so some of the fears, there's a few big ones. I mean, if we look at its core, what is leadership? It is a relationship between a leader and someone who chooses to follow. And I think really the strength of that is based on empathy, that human to human, I see you, I understand, I define empathy as showing people that you understand them, so there's a cognitive piece and caring how they feel, so there's an affective or emotional piece to it. So we get that like, yeah, I got to be empathetic. Well, all the research would say most leaders suck at it. A few things that get in the way, and I'll talk about two of the biggest, I write about six but let's talk about two of the biggest ones. Number one, showing people that you understand them and care how they feel, aka empathy isn't something that you can just check off your to-do list. Empathy, Morag, Howard, good check, check, check, check. So it takes time, right? And what is our scarcest resource, time? So people are, we give lip service to it and if we are going to show empathy, we need to show patience. And so part of leadership wisdom is we have to get out of this binary, it's this or it's that thinking? So yes, there is a time and a place to go fast like we, all, many of us in organizations know drive for results, in fact, a lot of organizations have drive for results as a codified core competence, or bias for action cause we have to deliver results. And driving for results should not come at the expense of driving over the people who are delivering those results. So part of the paradox, in the leadership wisdom is when do you go fast? And when do you go slow? So for example, are you taking time now while we're all working virtually remotely? Are you taking time with your teams to make sure you're checking in and building some human to human time before you get into all the tasks and project mode? Because let's face it people are struggling. Were isolated, were lonely, were depressed, we're all dealing with a global trauma right now. And I look up the word in the dictionary, by the way and this qualifies. Trauma is a deeply distressing or disturbing experience. And this is it. So are you checking in and being human? So that's the first big piece is time. The other key thing that gets in the way of people really showing people that you care how they feel. So a lot of leaders are uncomfortable around other people's emotions. They're like, "This is work, I'm not a psychologist, I'm your boss." So this is what they're thinking and in fact, I mean I'm of the age and you may have heard this too Morag, where people said, "Oh, we have a check your feelings at the door policy."

- I was older in my first career in banking and of course being British, we... Stiff upper lip, emotional uninterest.

- Exactly! Exactly! You are the exemplar of the globe, of the stiff upper lip.

- Yes.

- Perfectly darling. Anyway. So all of which to say it's a funny expression, right? Because if you stop and step back and we sort of assume it, okay, check your feelings at the door. You can't actually check your feelings at the door. What we do instead, so we suppress our feelings at the door which is exactly what's happening now. There was a great study that came out by Deloitte a few years ago. They thought that 61%, I think this was a US study, of the US workforce covers their identity in some way because they don't feel safe being fully themselves at work and let's face it we all know what it's like to put on a mask, and I'm not just talking about a COVID mask, I'm talking about the psychological mask. You can't but help feel disconnected when you are masked which creates a low trust, low empathy, low connection and ultimately a low performance culture. So to me, those two things, time and this whole "emotions are not okay" are two of the biggest barriers that keep leaders from being able to connect.

- Okay, so I'm a leader I'm listening and I've been through my own recent emotional epiphany and for those listening, check out my LinkedIn profile there's an article on there called "If You Don't Like The Show, Change The Channel". And you can read about my unstiff upper lip that happened a few weeks ago. But if there are leaders listening here who recognize, okay I need to create that culture of candor and safety. What's one thing that they can do to start easing the professional mask that may have been worn till now.

- Great, well the first thing that you can do, and I'll borrow a quote from Albert Schweitzer, one of my favorite quotes in the world, he says, "Example is not the main thing in influencing others, it's the only thing."

- Say that again slowly.

- "Example is not the main thing and influencing others it is the only thing." So I'd say, so if you want people to be more open with you, guess what? Be the person, be the change you seek, so start to model this, be more. And when I say vulnerable I'm not saying like, share your deepest, darkest secrets, this is not group therapy, this is work. We get it. And where can you stretch and share a little bit more humanity with people? And so that's one piece, the other piece I know you asked for one but I'll add a bonus piece to this, is really listen with purpose, which is very different from listening to respond or listening to tell someone what they should do. So there's a certain level of openness and curiosity and a spaciousness. Now, anyone who's a professional coach, I mean, this is what coaches are trained in. This is what we need to be able to do is to be able to listen in that way because people are aware when you are totally present to them and listening and focused in on what's going on, it changes the relationship and yeah it takes more time and yeah, it takes a certain level of courage to be okay with not having to fix things. I think so many of us look, so many of us got into leadership roles because we were these high performers who got stuff done, but there's this huge difference between being a high-performer and facilitating high-performance in others. And so it isn't about listening to like, "Oh, I can fix your problem", like, I don't need you to fix me. I need you to hear me. And actually just maybe ask me a couple of questions so I can come up with my own solutions, cause guess what? I'm an adult and so are all the people that you're leading so to me, listening and modeling that are so key to being able to make those connections stronger.

- This is so powerful and you shared the example of Matt as being somebody who personified that people-first approach. But as you think about how your own leadership philosophy has evolved over time and obviously a lot of it is in the book, what other transformations can you share as to the impact this can have personally and professionally if we get out of our own way?

- Yeah, I mean gosh, Matt's story could be my story. I mean, on a certain level, I was a high performer who got stuff done, I think I got into interested in leadership because I was a high performer and I realized, hey, it's be about leadership that makes this happen. And I remember, I mean, so for years I facilitated training programs and sometimes they'd be for 20 people, and sometimes they'd be for 2000 people. And when it was 2000 people, it wasn't just me, there was a whole team of support facilitators. When I was the essence, I was the manager, I was the leader on duty. And I remember getting some feedback from one of the brave, the support facilitators, who said, "You know half the team really doesn't like working with you because when we're on these programs, you get really so, you call it client-focused, we call it stressed out." And hearing that feedback, and I got that feedback more than once. I mean, this is the great thing, this is another huge tip for any leader who wants to get better is ask people around you for feedback and not just the people that you think are going to give you the good stuff, like ask the people who will be honest and really listen to that. Because in my heart of hearts, I knew I did not want to be the kind of person who steamrolls over people and to hear that literally someone was leaving a meeting in tears, it like broke my heart. So I had, again, it was one of those alarm clock, wake up call moments for me and I had to go, wow, this is not working. So what do I need to do? I have to breathe, I need to take some time, I need to apologize, I need to listen more and realize that what I think I'm saving in no, and Marshall Goldsmith talks about, and he talks about the danger of adding too much value oh that was so me, I was like I'm going to add, although this, you can do this better. And so here I was like, fixing everything that was fine without me. They were fine but I needed to insert myself and people were like, fine, you take it then, forget it. So I'd say my own journey has been one of... It isn't that I don't care about the results, it's just, I think I've shifted the priorities about realizing how I'm going to get there because everything is a team sport. And if you're leading a team, how do you make it so that the team achieves the results? That it isn't just about me like viscerally having to do something it's like, no. Sometimes I like to say that as a leader I am the most important person and sometimes I am the least important person, and part of it is the wisdom to know what role to be playing. So sometimes I'm leading from the front, sometimes it's from behind, sometimes it's from the side and that can shift from minute to minute. And so yeah, this journey of leadership development constantly never ends never ends to me and that's the beauty of it.

- I'm getting goosebumps, just listening to you and that whole we-first mindset, abundance and generosity. I mean, Simon Sinek's most recent book, "The Infinite Game" talks about that. And then if we look at success as a finite resource, then that tends to drive the behavior and the attitude that hoards information and it's me first. Whereas when we're playing the long game, when we're playing the infinite game, when we're playing the team-first approach, then we can give with abundance and generosity and celebrate your success because if you're successful then by association I can be successful too and we grow together. That's exciting stuff. So again, for leaders, as we're coming towards the end of this main part of our conversation, what else would you add? What tools, advice, how does somebody find out where am I today and how do I grow my leadership capability?

- You know, I'm a big believer in checking in with your team and I think even before you start to check in with your team, and I'll share three simple questions to ask your team in a moment, but I'd say check in with yourself, it's so important. And leaders, leadership is not a solitary act. What I mean by that is you should have a, I call it sometimes a court of support, so who are the people? Cause I get the fact that you don't necessarily want to show all of yourself to your team because they do project onto you but you do want to have those places where you can take the mantle or the weight off and just be totally honest and ask for some support, whether that's emotional support or whether that's some suggestions on things to do or content support. So have those supportive places to go and reach out because it's so easy for us, especially when we're under stress, humans tend to isolate and that's when, when we isolate, that's when the shame starts to build in more and it becomes this self-fulfilling vicious cycle. So that's the first piece, is check in with yourself and reach out for support. The next thing I'd suggest, when it comes to your teams, three simple questions and I use these consistently with teams. Number one is how are you feeling right now? And I talk about this as not just a, "I'm fine, how are you?" That's the cultural place holder. I'm fine, how are you? Or I'm tired, I'm hungry, I'm thirsty. Those are kind of, we'll call those level one feelings. Go to like level two or level three, a little bit deeper. Again, you don't have to... This is not deep group therapy but just something just honest. So how are you feeling right now? Is there anything distracting you from being present today? Is there anything like, for whatever it is we have to do, whatever project we're trying to get done, what's distracting you? So number one, how are you feeling number two what's distracting you and three, how can we support you? So the sense of, wow, and it's amazing how often just being able to say what's going on and what's distracting me is in fact a support, because guess what? That was all going on anyway, and for us just to be okay with wherever you are because there's a rule in facilitation leadership, I say you have to meet people where they're at and by you as a leader, giving people what we'll call the psychological air to meet them where they're at, it energizes them and helps them to focus on getting to the work that really matters. So checking in with people is such a huge thing and yeah then there's all the work to get done too, but start with that first.

- And again, everything that you just shared there, what are you feeling right now? What might be causing you distraction? How can we help and work together? All of that help overcome and avoid the misunderstanding that you're not seeing me as a full person, that sense of connection that you started and talked about earlier in the conversation, I'm seen, I'm heard, my opinions matter, you therefore, trust me. Okay, I'm going to give you my all then and not hold back and as a result, we get better together.

- Exactly. And the cool thing about those check-in questions, I don't need to know what you're going to say and I don't have to fix it and whatever you say is okay, so many of us as leaders think, ah but what if they... There is nothing to fix here. See, I don't know what you're going to say but I've done this long enough now to know that I can guide the process and that off the proof will be in the result of you going, "Ah, I'm ready to work, I'm focused. Let's go." That's the thing is, I think as leaders, again think about how we're socialized and educated, right? We're educated to give answers and our people don't need our answers as much as they need our really provocative questions. They can find their own answers if they're given a framework to do so.

- That's what the interwebs are for. And of course, in the more recent months we have a whole different lens for how we lead. So as you think about the fact, we're all living in these little three by five boxes right now what is your research and experience shown about how we may need to turn the dial up or down to be effective leaders, leaders in two dimensions and as effective as we were in three dimensions

- Love the question. There's a was a few things that come to mind immediately. The first is that we have to be that much more intentional when we're dealing with having to intermediate everything through this Zoom screen or whatever it is we're doing on the laptop. Because you can't just rely on geographic proximity where you could pick up on things like, "Hey, how's your day going?" Like, so you have to set an appointment. That being said, I think one of the things around intentionality, and so many of us are unconscious to the process, how we do what we do, we just kind of do the work. Whereas now is a really good time to check in with people, not just the three questions, but to check in with what is a good amount of communication. So for some people checking in might be, hey let's check in twice a day. Other people might be like, you know what, twice a month, I'm good. And there's no one size fits all so figuring out that, but I would say at the beginning, air on the side of over-communicating rather than under-communicating because, and I've been a remote employee for decades at times, there is a really easy out of sight out of mind phenomenon with this. I mean, I'm sure we've all experienced, we have these meetings where like, okay bye you like leave meetings like, it's done? Like what happened? Like you want to like have that post-meeting water cooler like what are you like... You just, it's gone, it's just, it's odd. So that's one thing is to consider is leaning into communication, over-communicating, checking in with people and asking them how much is good and being willing to shift and adjust along the way around your quality and quantity of communication. And then the other thing around moving forward in these times is I think we have to, again, like we said people are dealing with the collective global trauma is how do we normalize the fact that it's okay not to be okay. In fact, it's really hard for people to stay productive, like we can't, this is not post pre-COVID world. The fact is, I'm sure you've had these days where like I got crap done today, it's just like I'm in and you know, and I wrote an article for Fast Company this year about "pandemic brain fog". And this stuff is real, like you've heard of "Zoom fatigue". You can't do this in the same way you can in real life in real time so how do we find the buffers? Which might mean we might need to shift some of our performance goalposts. I know I had a couple of clients earlier in the year, the first concern the board of directors had was like, well we're not shifting our targets, right? Cause then we have to shift the metrics and then we have to change comp plans. Maybe you need to think about these things, right? So we can't expect people, again people are not machines, we are not Henry Ford on the assembly line. So where do we need to flex? The amazing thing, and I'm seeing these great stories coming out is so many companies are struggling To just literally keep the doors open. And instead of you, the fixer like I got to figure this all out, maybe you should ask your team, like what do you think we can do? How can we keep everyone employed? What are some thoughts? So I've had clients where the team has come up with creative pay cuts, like everyone is taken and they've come up with their own solutions, it's amazing when you get people involved and surprise, surprise, treat them like adults how much that makes a difference. So I'd start there, again, if I had two words on this whole theme, be ex. Oh, I guess it's three words, be exceptionally human. Be exceptionally human and thoughtful.

- And those are three beautiful words to end on. Be exceptionally human. Thank you for your time and insights, I'm going to ask the traditional and I'll make sure all the information goes in the show notes around this but how do people learn more about you, the book "Cracking the Leadership Code"? Where do we go?

- Sure, easiest place to go, cause it's easier to spell than my name is the book has its own website, which is a sub page of mine it's www.crackingtheleadershipcode.com spelled exactly the way it sounds or as you might say in the UK, as what it says on the tin which I love that expression. That's what it says on the tin, we don't say that yet but I love it, everyone gets it. So you go there and while you're there, you can learn about the book, you can actually download the first chapter of the book right there as a preview that will also link you to the other stuff that's going at alainhunkins.com. One of which things that's going on right now is I've actually taken some of the book content and packaged it up into a 30-day online leadership challenge that uses micro learning so in five to 10 minutes a day, you can practice becoming a better leader. So you can find that all on the website as well as the 30 day leadership challenge and those will be going on throughout 2021 as well. So yeah, I was going to say, and also if you've listened this far, you are now part of the end of the podcast club. So if you've had any questions that have come up, you can actually email me directly, and I do answer to all questions received at alain, A L A I N @alainhunkins.com which is A L A I N H U N K I N S .com. And if you have questions you can just email me and say, hey, I listened this far. I thought that was a cool, nifty thing you did.

- I love that. In fact, yet winner winner, chicken dinner, do it I double dog dare you. Cause I would have had to put in the plug for the 30 day challenge on the online resources. It is amazing. And if those of you who are still with us, listening that is just take five minutes a day, just pause and reflect on what worked, what didn't and how do you up your game and guarantee 30 days your leadership is going to be head and shoulders above where it was when you started so do it, take the challenge, take the challenge. Alain, thank you.

- You're most welcome, it's been my pleasure. Thank you, Morag.

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