People First! with Morag Barrett

Welcome to this week's episode of People First. And this week, boy, do we have a hot topic for you. But more on that in just a moment. My guest is Dena Denham-Smith, who is an executive coach to senior leaders and teams at world-leading brands such as Adobe, Netflix, PwC, Gap, Gilead, Dropbox, Stripe, and numerous other high-growth companies. As a former business executive herself, she is the founder and CEO of Cognitas Coaching and helps leaders and their teams reach new heights of success. Dina has written more than sixty articles on leadership and career success for publications like Harvard Business Review and Fast Company, and is frequently featured in international media outlets such as The Wall Street Journal, Business Insider and the BBC. She is the author of Emotionally Charged, How to Lead in the New World of Work, which is going to be our topic of conversation today. So, Dina, welcome to People First. Well, thank you. It is just awesome to be here. Well, I'm trying out, I am flexing in the moment, a new question to start each episode. And so you were the unsuspecting but willing guinea pig. So the question I sent you was, what's something that you were convinced of as a kid that now makes you laugh? Well, I guess I would start with the fact that I really did think a shark was under my bed. I got to watch Jaws just a little too early. And so I would take a flying leap to get into my bed to not get anywhere near the like dark, crazy depths underneath it. But then I also, I kind of had this really wonderful belief that if I made the right moves and I worked really hard, I could a hundred percent control it all. And I really did kind of live under this wonderful belief for all of my childhood, much of my early adulthood. And now sort of when I look back, I see there are sometimes more powerful forces than your own will. So that is a nice idea. I think you and I must have been twins were in the same scary room because I too had the monsters under the bed and didn't want to put even a foot out from under the duvet in case it got grabbed. But there you go. Well, I'd love to say, isn't it great to be a grown up? Because, of course, we're all calm, collected and in control every moment of the day. Or not, as the case of the day. Because that brings us to your fabulous book, Emotionally Charged, How to Lead in the New World of Work. So I don't know about you, Dina, but I feel emotionally charged most of the time. And so help us understand the title and what attracted you to this. Sure, sure. Yeah. So I love that you asked me about the title. Thank you for that. Because there's actually two meanings embedded into it. So the first is... really our world and the workplace specifically is more emotionally charged, right? We have a more diverse and polarized workforce. We have five generations in the workforce with different communication styles and value sets. We have all time highs. of stress and mental health challenges. And so it's really just raised the temperature at work. And that brings me to the second meaning, which is that the person expected to manage all of these heightened emotions is the leader. The leader is charged with managing emotions in the workplace. So whether it is an employee who has a personal challenge, That ends up at the manager's desk, right? When there are tempers on a team that need to be soothed because people can't figure it out themselves, it's the leader who needs to step in. And there's many, many, many other examples of the way that our expectations for leaders is that they manage and architect all of the emotions in the workplace. Yet, most ironically, you won't find that on a job description anywhere. The book opens with a really powerful quote from a chief people officer and also a compelling story that I know that most of us, when we read it, are going to recognize ourselves in it, let alone the poor leader that's trapped between a rock and a hard place. I'm going to leave it there because if you're listening, you're just going to have to buy the book or listen to the audio book and find out for yourself. But what it made me realize is there's a lot of synergies between your research around emotional intelligence and our research here at Sky Team around the importance of relationships. And at the end of that first paragraph, you talk about the leader who felt disconnected and disengaged. And that seems to be prevalent for many. So what is it that we're getting wrong about navigating the emotional landscape at work? Well, I think it starts with the fact that the emotional demands on leaders really have dramatically increased. So there were trends in the workplace before the pandemic that were simmering, but the pandemic was really such an intense inflection point that just accelerated a number of forces in the workplace that have increased emotional demands. So think about... We have increasingly distributed teams and remote work, which necessitates the use of virtual communication. It's a lot harder to work the emotional landscape from a distance than in person. We have this accelerated adoption of AI, We have, as I've already mentioned, an increasingly diverse and polarized workforce. And last but not least, we have much higher employee expectations for mentally healthy workplaces and supportive leaders. And so this has really increased the emotional demands on leaders. Further, they need to perform so much emotional labor in their roles in order to just do their jobs. And yet they've not been equipped with the resources or taught the skill sets for managing these immense demands. So it's really no wonder that we have this epidemic of leader stress and leader burnout and from that disengagement. It's interesting because there's a phrase that comes to mind that we've been talking about here at Sky Team, and it's fake perky and commenting that now that we're working at time and distance that I, we have fake perkyed our way through a Zoom call. And you'll know what I mean if you've done the smiling and the nodding and, hey, Dina, that's a great idea. And then when you hit the big red button at the end, you're going, oh, wow. I can't believe that just happened. And you refer to something similar, surface acting. So what's one tip right now from the get-go that leaders or team members, if you're looking to increase that emotional awareness and connection through the camera, what's one thing any of us can do right now to start effecting change? And gosh, one simple thing is, attending to the emotions that you feel. And you cannot always feel them in the moment. Let's be real. Like there are some times, right, where you're just like, ah, but you can't. You can't necessarily do that in a meeting. But, you know, and I really, really appreciate that, that sometimes the first line of defense, right, is to paint on the smile, right? Put on your game face. Like we have myriad expressions for this exact thing you're calling fake perky. The problem is that over time, there are some really, really steep costs to all of this fake until you make it, surface acting, fake perky, like this go-to strategy. And so if... If you are faced with one of these situations where you can't be entirely authentic with how you feel, spend a couple moments like later on, at least acknowledging and reflecting on that and processing those emotions. Because what's happening right now is... while we've faked our way through a meeting, like our emotions haven't gone away. Emotions have three parts, right? There's the behavioral aspect of it, which is the observable piece. There's the feeling of it, like our mental construction of it. But then there's also the physiological response that's in your body. And so this is why all of these costs amount over time is because when we fake it, we're just dealing with one piece of that emotion. But guess what? All that cortisol, all of the sort of the physiological response in your body, that activation, you need to process it through. Right. Or you do end up with the costs. So there's there's so much, you know, and there's a lot of like targeted little tips. But but that would be just like one thing. See, what I like about that is what I know from my own experience, that when I tamp down what I'm thinking and feeling, especially if it's a high heat index emotion like frustration or whatever, I can tamp it down and do the fake perky. unfortunately, if I don't let it out with the right people, i.e. those that are either triggering it or for whom I am triggering it in, it will explode outside of my office for the innocent bystanders, the friends and family who just happen to be in the right place at the wrong time. And so one of the tactics and one of the things I loved about the book and makes it so accessible is you've got a couple of acronyms in here to help us to remember what to do and one of them was breaking this stress spiral as you describe it and oh I should show you hang on I'm just going off stage left here hang on What you can't see if you're listening to this is I'm holding up a coil of wire. These are my stress spirals that I'll make out of little metal loops that come around things. And I have about twenty of them in my desk drawer. The good news is I'm obviously managing my stress spirals okayish because I've not made one of these in a very long time. And there was a time where I was making several a day. But back to you, Dina, because I just connected with that. Making the stress spiral, in addition to making your own little fidget sticks, you use the acronym D.A.R.E. So what does D.A.R.E. stand for? So D.A.R.E. gets at, it summarizes stress. the four different recovery states that can help us break out of the stress spiral. Too many of us have been in an activated state of stress for too long, and especially the leader population. of the things that happens before I get to this DARE acronym is the longer you've been stuck in it, the deeper you are, the less likely you are to take a break, which is this paradox. But meanwhile, for us to like sort of refuel our tanks while we continue to fly the plane, we need to break out of that stress spiral and invest in some activities that can restore us. And so DARE is an acronym that summarizes four different experiential states that can help us put fuel back into the tank. And almost like the more of these you hit, the better. So D stands for detaching from work, right? Too often you have maybe left your desk, but in the back of your mind, you're still ruminating or you're worrying about tomorrow, right? So you need an activity that's gonna help you mentally detach. You need something that you've chosen your own. That's the second one. It stands for A or autonomy. Because when your partner is like, we're going to go on a hike this weekend and it's going to be great. But that's not your idea of recovery. Guess what? You're not recovering. R is relaxation. E is engagement. So relaxation is things like maybe meditating, reading a book, taking a bubble bath, engagement tends to be more active things physically or cognitively. And so there are lots of different ways that we can, without investing too much time, enable these recovery states in ourselves. And not only do we replenish ourselves in a way that helps us break out of this death stress spiral and really sort of recover some physiological health, but equally importantly, it helps us be a better leader. So we know, like the case is closed, leaders who invest in their own self-care or recovery, They're better leaders, hard stop, you know, as rated by the people on their teams. And so there is both a very real reason to do this for yourself and there's a reason to do it for others. interesting to me because the focus as I listen to your advice there it does seem to be a me first self-care approach versus as the leader my lens is often looking outward at others and So is that where we should start or should we start with the team? Well, I think it's both and. It kind of gets back to you need to put on your own oxygen mask first. You will be a happier, healthier person and a more effective leader. if you take the time to invest in some of these recovery experiences and I like to call them recovery experiences specifically because and I do think there's misconceptions um and bad connotations around the term self-care right some people do equate that with being selfish or that it's soft somehow um but meanwhile leadership is an extremely demanding And there is a real physiological need to recover from the emotional and the cognitive demands that you face day in and day out in your role. I'm just having a flashback, a cold, clammy flashback to early in my career where literally being told, you know, keep your emotions at the door and there isn't a place for this. So how do you respond to those leaders that may still be stuck in nineteen eighty three and thinking, well, just toughen up cupcake and just deal with it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would say with all due respect, you're wrong. That's like a very good idea. And, you know, it's a very dated notion. We have decades and decades of research about the importance and validity and value of emotions at work. And yet a bunch of misconceptions still exist. For example... And there's a thought that emotions might get in the way of good business and decision making. Meanwhile, like here's the deal, right? If you're a human and you're dealing with humans, like emotions are in your midst. And if you don't acknowledge them consciously, they'll just be driving behavior and action unconsciously. Because they don't actually go away. There's another misconception that emotions are somehow like the antithesis of rational. And meanwhile, what we know is emotions are information. They are critical data. that can help you improve your relationships, your performance, your overall career trajectory. And so a lot of these misconceptions, though, they still exist in the workplace. They cause leaders to feel as though emotions might be a distraction or they might get in the way. we know the opposite is actually true. Leaders who see emotions as helpful as opposed to some version of harmful are more creative, more innovative, higher performing, and have happier teams. And so I think the evidence is quite clear that it is time to really give emotions the respect and the attention they deserve. And when I'm talking about emotions, I just want to provide a caveat. I am not talking about extreme emotions in the workplace. I am not suggesting that we all completely let it hang out, that anything goes. It's not that. But what I am strongly, strongly recommending is we stop hiding, suppressing and faking emotions to the extent that we are currently. And and, you know, instead acknowledge them and and and attend to them and manage them. They can be far more of a friend than a foe. In addition to the books and articles like your own, one useful way of learning a little bit more about the importance of relationships is to sit down with a bowl of popcorn and watch Inside Out. Because if that doesn't demonstrate why this isn't about the toxic positivity of let's all just be happy and brush everything under the carpet, it shows why we need to have those uplifting emotions as much as those that cause us to hesitate and pause and to pull down. It's when we get stuck in one over the other that challenges arise. So how do the tools and techniques that you share in your book, Emotionally Charged, how do they help us as leaders to do some of the tough stuff? There is tough stuff when you're a leader, right? And it just comes with the job. For example, having to deliver really, you know, tough kind of constructive feedback to someone or let someone go because they're not a fit, right? Or they're not performing in a way that you need them to do on your team or, you know, some of these layoffs get cascaded through the organization. And so we actually have a whole chapter that deals specifically with these, quote unquote, necessary evils of leadership, right? The things that you need to do as a leader that ultimately are going to make an individual feel bad, but are really important to do for the collective good. And, and the problem there is that we have kind of a couple different failure modes that a lot of people go into when they need to do some, like we, none of us like to hurt other people. Right. I really do believe that about ninety nine point nine, nine percent of humanity. And so when we do need to do something that we know is going to cause some harm or some hurt or some pain, we tend to disengage somehow. We try to disengage. And so leaders can end up like too robotic, which worsens the situation, or they end up too emotionally engaged and they take on a lot of the negative emotions of the feeling, which can cause some like collateral damage to them. And so- one of the things that we talk about is a technique called compassionate detachment. And it's actually something that doctors and therapists learn. There are people who have to constantly be in the face of like trauma and pain and yet be objective and direct and compassionate. And that's what we need leaders to do too in these really difficult situations is be that combination of things in a way that doesn't result in compassion fatigue or burnout for them. And so there's like a few different things I could share there. Do you want me to go into that or where would you like to go? Yes, please. Okay. Okay. There was just a little necessary preamble. So one of the things that I think is really important to understand is there are Really three different kinds of empathy. Generally speaking, we think of empathy is just like this one thing. But there is emotional empathy, which is really feeling what others feel. This is distinct from cognitive empathy, which is really having an intellectual understanding of where someone is coming from, what their concerns might be, and what they might be feeling. And this is distinct from yet a third type of empathy, which is really compassionate empathy or empathic concern, which is demonstrating care and concern for somebody's challenges and pain. So when leaders are in this position of having to do something that will hurt someone, the idea is to lean far more into this cognitive empathy, right? So rather than absorbing all of the feelings from the situation, cognitive empathy looks more like asking questions, right? To understand, to step inside that person's shoes, to understand their perspective, to understand their concerns, to anticipate possible reactions so that in the conversation with this person, you can then actually lead them very effectively, have this conversation where you're showing compassion and this empathic concern. but without dipping into all of the negative emotion. It actually allows you to be really effective in situations like this where you need to balance that objectivity and directness with compassion while still preserving your sort of mental and emotional wellbeing. It's interesting because the mental image that you portrayed for me there was I'm there with you, but I'm not trying to be in your situation, nor am I trying to project what I may have experienced in a similar situation onto you. I'm just with you. It's holding space for somebody to help them to process the head, the heart, and the physical reaction that they might be having to whatever has triggered that situation. You summarized that perfectly. That's exactly right. Well, thank you. In your research then, here's a self-awareness question coming up for you, Dina. What has become clearer for you about the situations and all the people involved that cause you to become emotionally charged? I would say for me personally, the closer I am to you and the more I care about you, the more likely that I will have really strong emotional reactions. And one of the things that we teach in this book that I've really spent a lot of time paying attention to for myself, is where do I feel it in my body when I'm starting to have a strong reaction? Because it's too likely no more migraine. our bodies can be these incredible warning systems for us here especially in western cultures we're so trained from the neck up right but less trained in like all of the intelligence emotionally like call it like our heart and and our body and but emotions and the sensations in your body are intricately linked and so for example I know that, um, I'm generally like pretty even keeled, but there are times where people can get really under my skin and get really upset. And when, when this is happening, the very first thing that I feel is like this intense, like clenching sensation that like in my gut. And when I feel that I know like, do you know, walk out of the room, just walk out of the room. Right. Because the chance of me saying something or reacting in a way that I regret later, are getting higher and higher by the moment. And so that is one of the things that I've become aware of over time. It's interesting. Mine is early morning if I'm hungry as well. I don't do early mornings if I'm tired. And so Ruby on our team, she will always have snacks and it will be like the chocolate advert. Hey, you're hungry. Eat something. And that helps. Or in those immense moments, I can play with my spirals that can help me to just calm down. Your colleague is really on to something. Like we, we really do need that. There was this stunning study. I just have to mention it because it's still like amazes me. It was done actually in Israel and with judges and who got parole and who didn't. And you know what they found out? I mean, it's honestly crazy. Like your chances of getting parole if you met with the judge close to lunch were so much lower than after that judge had had some food. Something to eat. Something to eat. So your team member who makes sure you're fed, like she's a smart one. And it's funny because you talked earlier about not just going with logic, but that's what much of our school system teaches us to do. It's can we regurgitate facts? Can I graduate X percent in my class? It is all about fact, fact, fact. And yet here's what you're saying. And all of this research is that we're hardwired to feel before we think. Paying attention to whether the hackles are going up on the back of your neck or when you walk into a room, even a Zoom room, and just think, something's up. Pay attention. Don't jump to conclusions as to what the it is, but at least paying attention to, I wonder why my hackles went up. Why is my mouth sitting on? Why am I so nervous? That's interesting. Then apply it as another data point with the other bits of logic so that you can make an informed choice going forward. Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, if you do think about the school system, if you think about like early career, right, it is all about training us to think critically, you know, or to... it's it's just all like very very heady training and unless we've grown up with like incredibly emotionally enlightened um parents which you know I don't think many of us did necessarily like there was even less of a place for emotions like thirty forty fifty years ago um or we've done a ton of therapy we're really not trained in emotions in terms of understanding them, unpacking them, regulating them and influencing them in the people around us for good, right? We're not trained in that and we're not trained in all of the wisdom that is contained in our bodies. And so what we're really trying to do with this book is help leaders see emotions in a new light, understand really like the scientific facts behind them and give them a ton of practical strategies and tools that they can use in day to day situations such that they can lead more effectively in the face of all the demands and maintain their well being. Well, Dina, I appreciate you sharing just a wee snippet of the goodness that is to be gained from reading or listening to your new book, Emotionally Charged. How can folks learn more about you, your work, and, of course, the book? Yes, thank you. So there's really two places to learn more about me or find me. One is on LinkedIn. um, Dina Denim Smith is my full name, um, as well as my website, which is D I N A D Smith, um, .com. Those are the two places to find me. You can learn about my book on my website. You can also find it on Amazon. Um, it's actually downloadable on Kindle right now, and it will start shipping, um, to homes all over the world next week. So it's brand new. There you see, there's an up emotion, exciting times ahead. Well, I wish you and your book all the success and impact that it deserves. And thank you for spending time with me here today. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for having me. I loved our conversation.