People First! Heather Younger, "Caring Leadership"

Sit back, and grab a coffee as Morag and Heather Younger discuss "Caring Leadership!"

Welcome to SkyeTeam's People First! In this series, we explore the people side of successful business and careers. We all have a story to share, a leadership journey that we are experiencing.

We'll be interviewing authors, business leaders, thought leaders, and people like you to uncover the latest ideas, resources, and tools to help you become more effective at work - and in life. As it turns out, the secret is cultivating winning relationships. Business is personal, and relationships matter!

So, sit back, and grab a coffee as Morag and Heather Younger discuss "Caring Leadership!"

Chapter Layout:
0:00 - Open
2:58 - What Did You Want to Be When You Grew Up?
4:08 - Pivot Point
8:54 - New Book
11:11 - Meet People Where They Are At
13:56 - Safety Leadership
15:17 - Am I Seen As A Caring Colleague?
18:14 - Feeling Heard
20:05 - Power in the Pause
22:08 - The 9 Behaviors
24:59 - Do It At Work, Do It At Home
29:04 - The Crucible & Wrap


- [INTRO] Welcome to Skye Team's, "People First with Morag Barrett."

- You know, when you meet people where you just click? Where it seems that your thoughts and ideas are aligned? Well that's how I feel about Heather Younger. Heather's my guest this week on "People First", and she is a best-selling author, international speaker, consultant, adjunct organizational leadership professor and a facilitator who has rightly earned her reputation as the employee whisperer. And as a champion for positive change in the workplace, communities and in our world at large, Heather founded Employee Fanatics, a leading employee engagement and leadership development consulting and training firm to inspire others by teaching the kind of caring leadership that drives real business results. Heather hosts a weekly podcast "Leadership with Heart." I was just watching a phenomenal episode with Garry Ridge from WD-40 and Chester Elton, which also uncovers the drive for leaders from all over the world and all walks of life to be more emotionally intelligent leaders. Her book, "The Seven Intuitive Laws of Employee Loyalty" hit the Forbes' must-read list and is a go-to source for HR professionals and organizational leaders seeking insight into their organization's dynamics. And she has a new book coming out this year, this week, "The Art of Caring Leadership: How Leading with Heart Uplifts Teams and Organizations." Heather, welcome to "People First." I'm excited for our conversation.

- Thank you. Thank you. I'm very excited. This is awesome. Oh, and by the way, I actually have a podcast. You probably don't know this. So my "Leadership with Heart" podcast plays weekly. So it does play weekly, but it's an audio podcast on all platforms. And then my live show, I wish I could tell you it was more more frequent than it used to be. That live show is kind of an extension of the podcast where I try to bring on people I already spoke with or new people that still are exhibiting some of those caring tendencies so.

- Either way, both very well worth listening to. What I love about the new technology is that they're not a "one and done" because those YouTube videos, those audio podcasts they are there forever. And so whenever you find yourself with five minutes I encourage you to listen to Heather's podcast. It is inspiring, it's uplifting. But more importantly, I mean, I was making notes, Heather. I love the conversation with Gary and Chester and we'll come back to that in a moment. But as ever on "People First" this is about the leadership journeys that we are all on. And the reality that it's rarely a straight line from A to B. In my case, it's a little bit of a crocheted, knotted tangled web that I've woven and as I mix my metaphors. But I want you to flash back to when you were a little girl and the teacher goes, "Right, Heather, what do you want to be when you grow up?" What was your answer?

- Well, it's going to be funny. So just get ready. I wanted to be a model and a singer. A model and a singer. Okay.

- And I don't do either.

- Not even for fun in the shower?

- Yeah, in the shower, in the car, there's some singing going on. My kids, some of them are like, I really love your singing. And some of them are like, mom, can you stop? So yeah.

- It was funny.

- It wasn't my calling.

- I took an hour out of the day yesterday, we're going to talk about caring leadership but it was an opportunity for me to care for myself. And I joined Elliot Maisie's Empathy Concert. And we had three or four professional musicians and artists and performers from Broadway singing. And it was just wonderful to detach, but like you I sing in private, but definitely not in public. all right so, you're not a Broadway star, yet. So what was the pivot point that brought you into leadership and emotional intelligence, diversity and inclusion all of the human elements that you work with.

- I had been managing people for a long time. So then you know, leading teams for a long time and several years ago, I was in an organization that was going through a merger of companies. And through the merger, I kind of sat there. I'm always been kind of like this person with five heads anyway where I'm noticing what's happening around me and I'm seeing how people, the pain is is unfolding around me with employees and customers. And so I look around and I'm like, something's gone wrong. So I go to the head of HR and at that time I was running customer experience. So I was not on the HR side or the leadership development side of things, right. So I went to HR and said, "listen, we have got to do something." I mean, the trust has been eroded. I mean, people are really fearful, our engagement is slow. And she said, "you're right. You should go do something about that." And I'm like, huh, what me? I'm running customer experience. Like, why am I supposed to so it, but it made sense at that point because I was the person who was already kind of like a culture ambassador. Lifted people all the time whether they were my team or not. I always try to bring people together. So I did, I took it on and created an employee engagement council and brought all the different people from all those companies together. And in quick order, I mean, within six months the trust really did start to grow and it was because we forced the people together to learn each other, to you know to understand each other more, to uncover more about each other and the commonalities. And so that went really well but the merger didn't go so well. And so they had hired a lot of people. It was just not good. So they ended up doing a lot of downsizing, about 200 of us. I was in the first round of that 200 and it was an "owie" 'cause I was the breadwinner at that time, a family of six and it just hurt. But I realized like right in that minute this is the pivot really. I realized that no one was listening, no one was listening to employees, no one was paying attention. They were looking at revenue. They were looking at recurring revenue. They were all, the people they were bringing in. They weren't paying attention to what happened on the onboarding side and the people who were already there. And so I just said, someone's got to be that voice. Who is that voice from employees back to leaders about what they can do to really improve the experience? And that's where I came in and I realized at that point that was my calling. So what I've been doing ever since.

- So pivoted from the external customer perspective to the internal customer perspective. And what I love about this, I flashed back to my early banking career where I remember being told "it's not personal, it's just business." And the reason I pivoted from the numbers side to the people side is that I came to realize there is no vision, mission, strategy, business, product, service that cannot be undermined if we're not paying attention to the human side. The humans that actually build, deliver, manage, service all of those products and systems. And for far too long the focus has all been on the task and the processes, the what of business, not on the how. So in the work that you've been doing how has that appetite for even using languages like the art of caring leadership, how has that pivoted as you've had and grown your business?

- Well, I mean, you know, like I said before I've been leading people for a long time. You know, I've been people's manager or boss for such a long time, almost my entire working career. And I realized the impact I had on them and their lives and how I could kind of make or break their experience. So how much care I showed to them, how much concern and kindness I showed to them just really made a big difference in how they experienced the workplace, how they saw their lives and just how they went home to their families. When I realized that I just, there's so much power there I didn't take it for granted. So the pivot for me, it really hasn't been actually, I've been seeing a lot of reminders over the last, I saw it the last month for four or five years ago, videos I was putting out with the exact same messages I'm putting out now. I mean, it may have had, you know, maybe had some different taglines but in the end it was the same. It's how employees feel that determines whether they want to stay with a team or not. And it's the leaders in the organization that determine those feelings. Really.

- Yeah, I know, it's a secret sauce and it's not rocket science but it requires a mindset and a care and attention to show up differently. It goes back to, as you just said, how do I want others to feel in my presence? And therefore, what do I need to do? Where do I need to turn the dial up or down in order to make that reality? Because then when it happens the results that we can build together are just so much better.

- So true. So true.

- So let's talk about your new book. Oh my goodness. So, having gone through this process, I'm in the process of bringing out our third book. I know, as a family of six and I've got three sons. I thing-

- Me too.

- Birthing a book is harder.

- I have three sons and one daughter, yeah. So we're the same, it's fine.

- But here we are, "The Art of Caring Leadership" So talk to me first about the inspiration for the book.

- Wow. I think the title, it started off actually, the original inspiration is from the podcast, "Leadership With Heart." So inside the book, I uncover like 80 of the interviews from that podcast. I didn't realize I was going to do that until I was maybe episode 25 in, and I'm like these people are so brilliant. Like, this would be way more valuable. Like some people may not listen to a podcast but they may read the book. What are the different modes I can actually get this out? So it was really the people that I was interviewing, seeing not their perfection but the journey, that whole thing you talk about, the crochet journey, right?

- Hmm mm.

- The imperfection, the ups, the downs and the valleys is where it got just so interesting and very magnetic for me as I'm sitting and listening. And I thought I have got to share this. So that's really where the inspiration came from. But you know, again, my lifetime has been one. As a child I didn't really feel like people really caring for me. They didn't really listen to me. They didn't make make me feel important and respected. And so it's always been my life's journey to make people around me feel that way whether I lead them as a formal title or it's just someone who looks to me for, you know for guidance and looks up to me as a mentor or something, right. So it just is, I hate to say, I don't want to say it this way in a cocky way, but it is who I am. So I embody the caring leadership. Not, again, remembering that caring leadership is not about perfection. It's the up and down cycle in the crochet. So I don't embody perfection. I embody caring leadership because it's about how are we kind of using our own unique brushstrokes to land on leadership style that works for the people that are looking to us for guidance.

- Yeah, I love that message because I think often people will leave a training program or read a book and expect to be perfect every time. And as adults, we are averse to being the newbies and we're all going to stumble and fail. I mean, I wrote the book about "Cultivate, The Power of Winning Relationships." I know there are times where I've dented relationships but I hope that the insights that I gained in the writing process meant that I'm able to recover and repair that damage before it becomes lasting. And hence the art here is it's meeting people where they're at but also being able to flex and hold true to what are do we individually need and want versus subjugating that for the good of others at all times. It's a balance and it's an act.

- It totally is. Yeah, we are completely like, you know kindred spirits or sisters from another mother here because we were speaking absolutely the same language.

- Oh yeah. And I know again, one of the inspirations is Garry Ridge who's the CEO and chairman of WD-40. And of course I remember using WD-40 or my dad using it when we were repairing bikes and so forth. I mean, isn't there that meme that if you want it to move use WD-40, if you want it to stay still use duct tape, those are the two that will need- So, let's be clear stereotyping WD-40. And I know there are other brands within the company that Garry is.

- Yeah.

- But one could assume a very traditional manufacturing, hierarchical organization. But Garry is a leader unlike many others. So tell me, what have you learned from your relationship, your professional, your insights and interviews with Gary?

- Well, I mean the thing that I love about Gary is that he considers himself kind of a work in progress. So he's always trying to go out of his way. I mean, his journey started by him going to get, you know a degree in organizational leadership to really start to understand "what is leadership?" "what does it really mean?" "What do I need to do to create more results inside my company?" And so I love what any of the turning points I've had with these leaders I talked to in the show, including Garry. Garry is highlighted quite a bit in the book, but there were lots of others, like I said, in different industries, small, big, some CEOs, some not. I mean, it's just nuts how amazing they are. But I would say the biggest thing is that he's kind of, he considers himself someone who's constantly learning. He never stops learning. He's always trying to figure out how much more value he can bring to his tribe and also to the bottom line of the organization and they've grown a lot. So I just, I'm inspired for sure by him. He's absolutely one of the top leaders I'm inspired by.

- It's the use of language that we are a tribe, that we are a family and look out for each other. And in the work that we've done I've seen that we had the opportunity to work with a client in the oil and gas industry. We were working with frontline drillers. So again, a life and death environment. And when we arrived, a very hierarchical environment. And safety standards are a key driver in these industries.

- Yep.

- And we were asked to put together a safety leadership program and we built it around the concepts of "Cultivate." The more we know, like, and trust each other the quality of the relationship, the more we will look out for each other, we will be safe. And we thought, Oh, good grief. They're going to push back. This is going to be too group huggy. Well, they embraced it. They went through it, 18% reduction in reportable injuries.

- Nice.

- I'm not joking. This was not the intent or learning objective but we had workers in tears as they talked at the end about how important safety was for them and who they were going home to at the end of the day.

- Yes.

- It brought people together at a human level. I get goosebumps as I think about it.

- Yes. I worked for for some years in oil and gas and the frontline folks of the folks I trained and I absolutely love the folks in production. And I just love those guys and gals, but mostly guys and it is interesting to see them embrace that kind of softer side of like considering what their coworker is expecting as like, as it relates to getting home to their family at the end of the night because the person was safe and how they were able to do the things you talked about. So, I agree with you and you know this stuff it can not just, I don't care how many of us say it, they will never be enough of us talking about this. It will never be enough of us because not enough leaders are actually paying attention. And so we can say it 500 times, 500 different ways and there'll be still a block of a large, large block of leaders who are not listening so.

- How do I know if I have a caring boss or a caring colleague? How do I know if I am seen as a caring colleague?

- Well, it's interesting that you say that. So when we look at, caring leadership really is kind of sniffed tested by those who look to that leader for guidance. So you're right. The employees really are kind of a final gauge. And in this book, I do provide a self-assessment at the end where they're able to go in and take an assessment that shows where they are on the scale and it's a real research type of assessment that I put together with the I-O psychologist. And so there'll be able to go on and do that and they'll have a whole support system afterward. But there are nine behaviors with sub-behaviors inside the book that I talk about that really give you more guard rails and more like hard edges to what caring means.

- Hmm mm.

- 'Cause if you think about it, caring- it gets kind of nebulous. It's really has been really nebulous. Like what does this thing "caring?" People know that they're cared for by how they feel but how do leaders know what to do to create those feelings? And that's what I've attempted to do in this book is to put these behaviors based on all the interviews I've had, kind of synthesize what those are and say here are kind of the nine main behaviors and lots of stories and sub-behaviors and actions underneath those that can really get you to the point where your people feel like you care. And caring leadership, you know, it really is about showing concern and kindness for those you lead. And so if you need to, if you, if for some reason you'd, let's say you got an employee, 'cause there's, meet people where they're at was one of the, is one of the chapters, right. But it's like, you have an employee and you, and one of their, let's say their children is suffering or let's say they have cancer. If you're a boss, who's like, yeah, okay, that's interesting. Okay, so what's going on with this project? I need to know like how are we moving that on, right? If you're that person who's just continually moving things along in there, and there's- your people are in pain inside or outside of work and you ignore them, you are not a caring leader. Now, if you, however, 'cause remember I told you this is not perfection. It is the crochet that we talked about earlier. So if you were doing that before but you decide to do a switcheroo, you say I'm wanting, I have an intent to get better and I'm going to go do that. Then they come to you or they don't come to you and you say, you sit with them, you're one-on-one and you say, so how's your son doing? I want, I'd like to know, let's put the project aside. I really like to know how is he doing? Is there anything I can do for you and your family? Do you need any extra time off? These are the things I'm talking about when we say what are the demonstrated, the actual expression of care. So, yeah, I think I care. Yeah, I'm such a caring leader. Oh, I am the bomb, I care, I care. How do you express that care? And you have to express it in very clear ways. And when you do express it in that way your people will feel cared for.

- And I love that because I was coaching a leader only last week and he was going, well, I can't do that because what if I can't meet the extra time off? And the answer is it really, it matters but it also doesn't because the key, and I think you said it earlier on is, people need to feel heard. And if you feel heard and then you explain why you can or cannot meet their request they feel like their opinion matters. But now they understand, they're not writing a story that says my boss is a jerk. He or she doesn't care because we've had that conversation. And so it's that power of just asking with curiosity and no guilt, just ask and connect.

- And even like, as this pace that we just slowed ourselves down to, I mean, even this pace right here is exactly, this is exactly the type of thing you want to do. Right now, you may be moving into the meeting at first, kind of moving quickly and then you just slow it down and you allow for those spaces of like, you ask the question and you allow for that quiet, right then for them to process, to tell you there's an intimacy there that you are allowed to have at work. In fact, you want to have those moments at work. And so when you get there, right then you're able to really hear, you're able to peel away you know, everything that's happening and you're really able to hear them and meet them right there in that moment either in their pain, in their confusion and and you give them what they need. And I am telling you it's rarely about money. Occasionally it is. If it's like someone who's paid kind of at already, kind of the lower level tier of the organization then money is obviously survival when we think about Maslow's hierarchy it's going to be survival. But if we kind of remove that as assuming there's at least basic survival intact, right, and you've got those major needs safety and security just in the home life. And you got to go above that. Your love, care, or concern is so critical for people. And if they have that at work they're going to stay with you longer, period.

- Yeah and go the extra mile. It's that secret sauce to the engagement piece. And to your point, there's a power in the pause of just enjoying the enjoying, but sitting in the silence and giving space for people to choose how they respond but also just to acknowledge the fact that you've asked. And now more than ever because in the work from home environment the anxiety that we all have around basics, can I get toilet roll through family going to be okay to I have sick relatives, et cetera and I can't go visit, we're going up and down that Maslow's hierarchy of needs that you mentioned sometimes in a matter of hours. And I remember when I was taught at a university it was presented in you go up and down in a matter of years or decades. But now we're talking about matter of hours, which is why as leaders we need to make space for people to be able to share how and what they're feeling so that it, we name the elephant.

- Yeah. And I think when we, when we see the world the way it is, I mean, we look at 2020. So just the pandemic alone, everybody has a lot of fear around their safety and security, again which is like that next level of up on that hierarchy. And then we are, you know, it's if you look at all of the things that we need in order to get to the point where, oh my gosh, I've arrived in this world, which Maslow called self, you know self actualization, where we were arriving, we are getting to the best place we can be. We are arriving as our best selves. We just can't get there if we don't feel safe. So if we as managers can actually help and create that environment of safety, this, you know the safe spaces, psychological safety, but just, you know like we just talk about taking in those pauses, being okay with just sitting with them, not with an agenda, not looking at what they can do for you but what you can do for them and how you can help them grow as I'm sure, you know, as the cultivate book right, talks about like, how do we make people grow? And it's part of this book too. These are all, that's one of the nine behaviors, right? How do you look for the greatness?

- How do you look for the great? So you talk there about the nine behaviors and you mentioned earlier on, this is not about perfection. And in fact, the power of your podcast, "Leadership with Heart" is understanding the highs and lows from each of these amazing leaders, wherever they are in their career. So coming back to you then as the author of this book when you look at the nine behaviors, which is the one that is your high that it comes naturally to you and which is the one way you have to pay extra care and attention in order to role model that consistently?

- I would say the high level for me is listening, So creating a listening culture, making them feel important and looking for the greatness in those that we lead. Those are probably the most important places for me. I would say the lowest one would be empowering them to make their decisions and self-leadership, so cultivating self-leadership. So what I mean by that is cultivating self-leadership there's multiple kinds of sub looks at that with authenticity and congruence and things like that. But the biggest downfall for me in self-leadership is that pausing for myself, giving myself self-compassion and giving myself self-care. So that's most leaders, you know, as we know many of us and particularly those who are really kind of high, high thriving people who really want to achieve and move fast and run fast, that self-care, self-compassion, self-empathy part is a low point. And then the other low point, what I say by empower is like I love to empower people and I write that in there. But I also have a timeframe by which I want people to do things. And so what I find is I'm empowering and I literally like, I just like, oh but all of a sudden, like I'm pretty sure that timeframe's passed, so where's it at now? Like, is it done? Is it done yet? Like, so that's what happens with me it's my low point, right?

- Okay. Yeah.

- The good thing, where I save myself is this true desire to connect, to show people that they're important to my presence. You know, just to know that I respect what they are bringing to the table and then I do see their gifts. So since they know those things it gets me out of trouble when I might be a little pushy over here, or again it doesn't help me on the self-leadership side it mostly helps me on that empowerment side. Like I said, I embody, you know majority of these things, but I am not perfect. And I'm not even perfect on any mark. I'm not even perfect in the listening side. I'm not even perfect on the seeing the greatness 'cause sometimes I might miss that. It's a rarity. I would say that's probably my very top, top strength is seeing, developer is one of my top five strengths. So empathy, compassion, relater, developer and woo. And when I look at developer, that's all about how do I continue to look, like find the seeds, the tiny kernel that most people might miss. I rarely miss it. But occasionally I do, so.

- It's interesting as well as I reflect on my approach too. If you ask my clients, colleagues, the highs and lows, you may get similar but also different answers than if you ask my boys. 'Cause I know my listening goes down when my boys are, yes. 'Cause then they go. And so I've learned that, well if I can do it at work I should be able to do it at home and vice versa. As you mentioned earlier on the self-assessment, so when people buy the book, please buy the book. It is phenomenal. But they take the self-assessment, what are they going to learn and then where do they go from there?

- It's actually pretty exciting. So I'm glad you asked this. So, and this is what I love about it 'cause it's not just a book that you read, you put down. It actually ends up being an entire community with a ton, a huge support system and guidance system. So you take the assessment, the assessment then gives you, provide your results. Let's say you're in two areas or whatever your lower let's say make them feel important in empowerment. You might be like me right where you need to get better. So what will happen is you're invited into a caring leadership community. And after you're invited to that community you also are invited to engage in some caring leadership coaching by coaches that are inside the community. And you also will get recommended some courses that fall within the areas that you were lower. So inside there the coaches will be doing masterminds, things like that. So it will be all kinds of, it will just be support community of caring leaders and development who are just in there together. They're all kind of like, what is happening? Oh, I just did this today and what'd you do? And subgroups and a lot of facilitated things by me my team and other coaches, you know, whoever I invited into the community to kind of help out with it. So again, it doesn't stop at the book. It's like the book is the starting point and all the other stuff afterward is the journey that you take.

- I love that 'cause so often when I've read a book and thought I'm going to do this, and then I move on to the next shiny object. I love the accountability or the continual reinforcement and the ideas of it isn't a personality transplant that any of us need, it's the fine tuning and the conscious deliberate choice of I need to be a 7.5 today. I'm turning the dial up. Oh no, I need to be a 6.5 for this person. Or, hey, I'm a three, I really need to step up, and add to my toolkit. But it's mindfulness and we can all learn.

- Yes.

- And this is what it is. It uplifts everyone.

- It really does. When we're all more intentional you know, I think, I was trying to figure out for a while there like, what do I really stand for? Because I can talk about so many different things but really who am I and what do I stand for? And I would say intentionality is probably the biggest thing that boils down for me. So I go at everything in life with intentionality even my overcoming, my adversity that I've had. And you can check out my Ted talk on that later. But this idea of being intentional by putting the stuff in front, put loading things in front of me that keep my eye on a prize instead of being distracted by all the things around me and being you know, drugged down 'cause you think like that whole crabs in a bucket thing, it can happen all the time if we let it. But because there's level of intentionality there in everything, it's just in everything. And even if like eating and like working out is like, well, yeah I had that chocolate and I know what's going to happen. Like I know it. And I made the intention of that choice. And so I think in anything I believe that choices are everything. And so with caring leadership it's the choice that we make every single day to show up in a way that shows concern and kindness for those we lead. It's just, that's what it boils down to every day. And there'll be days where not so great. And it doesn't mean you're not a caring leader period. It's, you're in development. You are in development and you are today, you may have been a shining example. Tomorrow you may really suck. And like you said, I'm like that with my kid, I would say at work, I'm almost like 90% of the time caring leadership is intact. At home, oh my goodness. It's probably like 70/30. Like so 30% of the time I am just not you would be like, is that Heather? Did she just say that? And that's exactly right. there's no perfection here. And this does not start here it does not stop here, right.

- How we can show up differently for those who are closest to us. And so again, the learning is, it's not perfection but let's remove the volatility between where we are on our good days and our best days. 'Cause it's easy to be a caring leader, an awesome leader, a great colleague, a great mother when things are going well. But as 2020 showed us the ultimate leadership and relationship crucible, and if we aren't intentional, then navigating the storms in a way that allows us all to thrive is going to be a dance I, harder and not much fun.

- And what I've found is that when things are going well, if they're going really well in our business that could mean that our business is like blowing up, like doing very well. And so then in fact, I still get to come off a certain way and maybe inpatient, not listening very well. Not really, kind of delegating rather than empowering at home. I'm just thinking more at home. But again, occasionally it would be at work too. So I'm not, you know saying that it's never there but it would be mostly at home. And there's certain, you know, we know as leaders we all know there's like these things we do, we've done them our whole lives and we constantly work on them and that's just what we're going to always do. And sometimes we can flip it over, sometimes we can flip it. Like I've done that with my workout routine. And I've done that in the last two three years where there's a level of consistency that there's just, no, there's no going back. I'm there. So there are certain things, behaviors that we do that we can flip them and they won't come back. I do believe that. And a lot of times it's a wake up call. There's one leader, Ron Alvesteffer of Service Express. He's a CEO and he talked about how he would just go into meetings and just be like, let's get to business let's get to businesses and scale the numbers. And when he had, you know, he just had a wake up call it was like, I got to focus on the people, the person in front of me and what's going on. And when he had that kind of a mindset shift in that regard you know, kind of some hand slapped, he realized that and all of a sudden, his business just took off, I mean, they grew. It went from like, I don't know, 13 million to like 130 million. They went from like a certain amount employees to like 15 times or 200 times that employees. I mean, it was just crazy. So I think it happens. But I know for me that whether it's going really well, going really bad, the extremes are where I don't shine.

- Hmm mm.

- It's the extremes. So I have to, what I've noticed is that when I talk about self-leadership, which is like the biggest chapter in this book, what I've noticed is if I don't go for care, if I don't ask for help, if I don't become, if I'm not transparent with my team, if I'm not all those things, right, and I just try to do it all myself, I do not shine. Caring leadership is I am not shining that light. So what I've learned for me again, is to say, "how am I going to lean more on people?" How do I continue to expand the team to do the things that, so that when I get to the point where it's going really well, which it is or when it's not going well, which it did, you know then I could say, oh my gosh like I really need to go to someone or I need to turn to this person or ask this person to these things. And that's caring leadership. Caring leadership starts with us.

- I love that, "Caring leadership starts with us." But now it starts with you Heather. So where can our listeners and viewers learn more about you, the work, the book, everything?

- Well, the book, cool, is, And you can also, of course you can go buy it anywhere. So we really just go Google it. You could see it on Amazon or pretty much anywhere. We'll do bulk sales as well. So for some reason you want to have it for your whole team or your organization, we'll do that. And then you can go find me on LinkedIn. I do a lot of, a lot of my presence is on LinkedIn. So you just go look up Heather R. Younger, or Heather Younger, and you should pop up there so.

- Well Heather I know there was so much more that we could talk about. Please come back as a guest again, but thank you for sharing your journey and your insights on "People First."

- Thank you.

- [Narrator] Thank you so much for joining Morag today. If you enjoyed the show, please like and subscribe so you don't miss a thing. If you learn something worth sharing, share it. Cultivate your relationships today when you don't need anything before you need something. Be sure to follow Skye Team and Morag on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. And if you have any ideas about topics we should tackle, interviews we should do, or if you yourself would like to be on the show, drop us a line at That's Thanks again for joining us today and remember, business is personal and relationships matter. We are your allies.

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